Living w/Depression | Trust Allah and Tie your Camel

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sam, what were some of the first experience that you, like, some of the first symptoms that you experienced growing up? [00:00:33] Speaker B: I mostly remember my junior year of high school, that depressive episode. And I think for me, I didn't like, I used to love doing a lot of things. Like, I talk about this a lot with everyone, but I love swimming. And I just was like, no, I don't like to do anything. I don't want to do anything. I didn't even want to do anything other than sleep because it felt like everything in my life was too difficult. So I'd rather just like, just sleep and do nothing until. [00:01:12] Speaker A: Did, like, your family start to notice this or. Because I know sometimes people act like they start seeing that you're sleeping a lot, and they'll be like, oh, you're lazy. Oh, you need to, like, help around with the house more. They'll do. They'll make fun of you and get on you, but they won't view, like, you sleeping as a symptom of depression, you know? So how did your family perceive your symptoms? [00:01:40] Speaker B: I think at the beginning, it was kind of like that, but I feel like it was very abnormal for me, just the way that it affected my mood. Like, I wasn't. I think I'm a lot more bubbly than I am when I'm feeling like I'm in a depressive episode. So I was just sleeping a lot more than like, I think it's not of unjust. Like, when I say sleeping, I mean, like, I would probably wake up to, like, attend a couple of my zoom classes. And then I would just like, lay down in bed all. And I wouldn't even, like, sometimes just be on my phone. I'd just be like, laying down and thinking. And I don't know that there was anything more that would have told them that I was depressed or something like that. I know that I had a lot of chores and stuff like that, but I think with COVID and everything, it was a lot easier to assume that, oh, everyone's probably feeling sad because they can't go outside anymore, rather than like, maybe coming to terms with that someone in your family has depression, and it's a lot easier to be like, just get up and do your chores or something. And I think in a big family where there's more people that can kind of like, pick up after you, it was a lot easier to just redelegate tasks and focus on, like, all my other siblings and this to maybe check in on. I remember, like, once my dad did and was like, you've been sleeping a lot. Are you sure you're okay? But it's also something. I was very protective. I was like, no, I'm okay. I'm okay. I promise I'll get up. You know what? Matter of fact, I'll. I'll do something right now. And then I just wouldn't, you know, So I don't think that. I think it's also very hard to help someone that's depressed when you don't necessarily know what it looks like or how to handle it. I don't think that depression is really even brought up in my community enough for someone to look at depression be like, oh, she's just. She just feels sad a lot. I don't know. That's it. And that would have been, like, something that my parents would have thought, what. [00:03:58] Speaker A: Messages did you grow up around that made you even want to hide it? [00:04:07] Speaker B: I don't think it's necessarily like a message, actually. No. I feel like whenever people hear, like, any kind of mental health problem, they just automatically assume, like, the biggest word you hear is crazy. The biggest word you hear is someone who's just out of their mind. And I'm like, I'm not crazy or, like, out of my mind. I'm just. I don't really know what is going on because I didn't. But I knew that I wasn't like, I was still very. I feel like I had clarity enough to know that something was wrong, but not in the way I feel. Like, people think that depression is just like a psychosis episode or something like that, but that wasn't something that I experienced. [00:04:56] Speaker A: Did you talk to anyone about it when you first started feeling this way? [00:05:01] Speaker B: Not for a long time. I think my mom was able to pick up hints, and my dad was also starting to get some hints at. During my junior year. But I remember there was this time when I was just like, I don't know what to do anymore. I. I'm so tired of feeling like this. I really feel like that I might be a danger to my own self. And I know I like it. Just can't keep working like this. So I remember texting my friend and she was like, I think, like, you should maybe talk to your older brother, like, talk to your mom, you know, and just like, see what happens or comes from that. [00:05:47] Speaker A: And. What. How old were you this time? [00:05:50] Speaker B: I was probably like, 17. Okay. A lot of this is like, when I was 17. And, yeah, I'm so glad she talked me into kind of just being like, you know, you can like, tell your mom, and she doesn't even have to understand it for you to be like, can I just, like, have a doctor's appointment and see who I can talk to? And so that's what I did. I went to my mom and I was like, you know, I feel like there's something wrong with me. And she was the one who was like, okay, I'll just book a doctor's appointment and we'll go from there. And that's kind of where it started. Like, things started taking off with, like, therapy and everything like that. [00:06:35] Speaker A: I love that for you because I feel like you being second generation and your mom, like, coming to America when she was a teenager and having, like, that whole experience that helped you more compared to, like, us millennials who our parents would not even have suggested that, you know. [00:06:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I know my mom came here when she was even younger than that, so maybe for my dad, when this was, like, back in middle school, but. And this is when I feel like I first started realizing, like, hey, there's probably something not right here. Was I remember going up to him and telling him, you know, abba, I feel like, really, that I feel really sad lately. You know, I was like, oh, you know, it's okay to feel sad. All you just need to do is, like, you pray to Raka, you'll be okay. And I was like, okay, so obviously better when it quit work. But, yeah, I think that's what made me so scared to bring it up to my parents was they're probably just gonna say something very similar like that and think that it went away, even though I'll probably just not be talking about it as much, rather than it actually going away. So, yeah, I think my mom. I was pretty, like, strong. Like, I was older, so I could speak up for myself more. And I think she really. They really saw more of my depressive episode when I was 17, like, really going through it, rather than, like, when I was in middle school. [00:08:17] Speaker A: I'm gonna kind of segue into, like, the next aspect of the mental health conversation, which is for us, which is religion, because I feel like that's the most prominent identity in our lives, you know, outside of culture. So how does your religious or, like. Yeah, how do your cultural, religious, or gender expectations shape your mental health journey? [00:08:46] Speaker B: I can talk about, like, my religious risk and mental health thing, where there's, like, a very popular idea that if you're, like, feeling any kind of, like, sadness or anything, all you need to do is make some dua. You just need to pray more and read the Quran more, and it'll go away. Like, you're just not being religious enough. And I think for a long time, that made me feel guilty and be like, oh, I'm probably just being punished with my depression because I'm not praying enough, I'm not doing enough. I'm not reading as much as I should. And that, like, really hurt my relationship with my religion for a really long time. And I think that kind of made me distance myself from it. And then I think I had to kind of reform my, like, mental health through therapy in order for me to start realizing how wrong that was and how learning more about depression itself as, like, a mental illness. So something that actually shows up physically in your brain was able to make me understand that this is not like, something. A problem of, like, mental fortitude. And that was able to make me realize this is something we can have. Things that are separate from religion. I think the same way people understand that a cut on your arm won't heal if you just pray about it, you kind of need a band aid is the same way that we need to. Need to start thinking about, like, mental health, where praying alone won't heal you or help you, but there are, like, medical services, which mental health is definitely, like, a part of, those services that help you figure out how to. [00:10:53] Speaker A: Use. [00:10:53] Speaker B: Like, coping skills and stuff for your mental health rather than just hoping and through prayer that it'll go away. [00:11:02] Speaker A: Yeah. I feel like people forget that religion is also part of the toolkit, but it's not the only thing inside your toolkit, you know? [00:11:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:11] Speaker A: Like, there's therapy, there's relationships, community, there's religion, there's changing your diet, activities and hobbies. Your finances matter, your health, all those things, if you take care of it, you can aid in your mental health, you know, but you can't just rely on one thing to help you manage your mental health. [00:11:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And even within, like, Islam, there's a very popular saying, I guess now that I remember is that you're supposed to tie your camel, and then you make dua. Then you make your prayer. And the meaning behind that is, like, you. You tie your camel to, like, make sure that it doesn't go away. You don't just have a camel, not tie it, let it roam free and be like, oh, well, I'm gonna make that and hope it's there the next day. Like, your camel will, like, it will run away on you. So it's a matter of the rope that ties your camel, like, creating other Tools to also deal with life, rather than just hoping through prayer that something will go the right way for you, because that's just not how this life works. [00:12:23] Speaker A: What tools have you used to manage depression? [00:12:27] Speaker B: I would say a lot of what my therapy, where my therapist has taught me, has come in, and a lot of it is just kind of reframing your mindset. I feel like the negative thought pathway is something that she works with me a lot. But I think depression, a lot of it, you live inside your head more than you're able to, like, experience the ice, like, the society. And a lot of it was just figuring out how to build, like, a regimen, like, an everyday routine that works for me, how to pick myself back up out of a depressive episode, or even just how to enjoy things again, because I think that took a very long time for me. [00:13:23] Speaker A: I know you're the first person in our family who I seen even start therapy, you know, so after I seen you do it, that's when I knew, oh, it's something I should sign up for you for, too, you know, and just seeing the way you implement everything you learn, like, or that you learn and, like, coming and then talking to me about some of, like, the tools your therapist taught you, let me know, like, this. This thing is only gonna work if you implement these things. You know, it's not about hoarding, like, knowledge or whatever information they give you. It's actually about, like, taking those tools and then implementing it in your real life. [00:14:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I think therapy, a lot of the time, even when I first started therapy, I was like, oh, if I start therapy, that's it. And I was like, wait a second. This is clearly not. Like, I definitely still feel, like depressive times. Even, like, very recently, I was, like, going through, like, a kind of, like, an impressive episode. And so it's about being able to pick yourself back up again each time and making that your life doesn't have to be like. You don't have to be stuck in whatever is ailing you. I guess a lot of therapy teaches you the tools to have a life outside of what's ailing you, and you don't have to let it take over your life. And therapy is also very, very gradual changes. So you gotta be, like, a year in to see the difference. It won't just be, like, one day I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna be a princess. Yeah. [00:15:08] Speaker A: Nowadays, I see a lot of people talking about how therapy can actually be a crutch, and people are using it just to like, they want to just event or just, like. Like to dump on their therapist, but then they're still the same people outside of it. So, like, what would you say to those who are not getting, like, the full benefit from therapy and how to not use it as a crutch that keeps you stuck? [00:15:40] Speaker B: I think you and your therapist should talk about very specific goals that you want out of therapy. And a lot of the times my therapist, she, like, kind of brings that back up every, like, three to six months and be like, are we actually hitting our milestones? And I can't think of any off the top of my head. But if you aren't seeing, like, the gradual changes in your life of, like, let's say, your thought patterns, your behavior, or your ability to, like, enjoy things again, if you are still experienced experiencing your symptoms to the same level or even worse from when you came into therapy, then I think you probably should start a discussion again about those goals with your therapist. Or maybe that therapist just isn't, like, the right fit for you, and you need to figure out a therapist who's actually willing to, like, work with you specifically on your goals. Yeah. [00:16:50] Speaker A: When. When you went, like, to the hospital with your mom and they suggested the things that you might need, was she, like, embarrassed about it, or did she, like, think about, oh, what are people gonna say? Oh, is she more focused on your healing? [00:17:06] Speaker B: I think, with therapy? No. And she. I think my mom was very understanding of the fact that I. And I talk with my mom a lot, but a lot about my mental health at the time. So I think she was kind of like, I really don't know what to do, and my kid is just here, and she's struggling. And it was. I want to say, like, those earlier times were pretty bad, too. So she was just very confused. So I think she was very receptive to how much therapy helped me, because there were, like, times, I guess, very early on in depression where I. I genuinely thought that, like, could just leave my life away. Like, I didn't want to do anything anymore. I didn't have any plans after, like, I turned 18 or anything. That came a lot later. So for her to see me, like, flourish now, I think she's actually very grateful that she just decided, you know, that I decided that I was even okay with going to therapy myself, because a lot of people don't even get there to want to go to therapy themselves. So I think she was very receptive. I know some things about it scare her, like inpatient care and how a lot of People might not always receive the best inpatient care at times, or there's a lot of stigma about taking medicine to also help you, like antidepressants. But I think that while I was younger, just seeing my, I guess, gradual shift of behavior and I think that's something like she's very clearly noticing now helped her, I guess be more comfortable about reaching out for medical help rather than like assuming that doctors and everyone would immediately like kind of label me as crazy or label me as someone that needs to immediately go on. Like, I think she just, she's always like a worst case scenario person. Like, oh my God, they're gonna take it away. They're gonna give her a bunch of pills and she won't. But I'm like, no, like, let's just start with therapy now. Like this is. And then just see where that goes, you know. So I think she was comfortable with just deciding on therapy and I think that was a lot of what I needed, just like tools of how to help myself. So, yeah, I think she was very receptive to therapy as I kept going and as she was like, you know, you've been. I like this. [00:20:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm going to tie it back to the religion, my conversation again because there's a part where you were talking, where you were saying, I couldn't get out of bed. Some people would say, oh, maybe you've been afflicted by evil eye. Oh, maybe someone did black magic on you. So how could I not know if you have the answer to this question, but how could you tell when something is not evil eye or like cihud compared to like an actual mental health issue? [00:20:41] Speaker B: Funny story, that was also the first thing my parents thought. And it's like I remember, I don't remember how young I was, but they were like really sad lately. Let's go to the masjid. It's like fajr early in the morning and the shaykh will go like pray on you or something. I really don't know what was going on. I just said that I needed to go there. And I remember they tried that twice, didn't change. I was still very clearly depressed. I was still very, I think the word of the month to describe that era. We was sensitive. It didn't really help. So I think it's a lot easier to just. I think they were just confused. They're like, well, sadness. Just go pray it doesn't go away. But I think I just grew with going, with being homeschooled, with being in like the COVID era again. [00:21:43] Speaker A: It. [00:21:43] Speaker B: It really. I didn't really have to, like, I could really focus on, like, hiding my depression a lot because that's, I think, something that I did for a long time. And I think there were signs that it was visible. You could tell that I was depressed. But it was a lot, very, very. A lot of effort to tell and focus on that when you have so many siblings that your parents also need to take care of. Like, all my. A lot of my siblings are younger than me. I think doing both of those two tries, seeing no change was probably why they were like, maybe it is some kind of mental health condition. Because they were like, maybe you could just listen to mustard more. And I was going to, like, my Sunday classes every single. What was the Sunday classes for me? I had, like, Quran classes every day of the week. So I was very connected to the mosque and everything, and it still wasn't changing the way that I felt. And I think especially now, they're able to see very, like, it's very much a fact that with therapy, like, proving that it's a mental illness and not just some kind of evil eye. [00:23:05] Speaker A: I'm gonna talk about, like, depression and how it impacts your daily life and then also your relationships. So what does a hard day look like for you? [00:23:18] Speaker B: I think my hard days now look very different to, like, my hard days, I want to say back in high school so I can talk about my hard days now where I notice if I'm, like, really feeling it. A lot of times I just don't really show up to my classes anymore. I'm not going to any social events that my friends have invited me. I noticed I really isolate myself because, like, I'll pop up back a month later or something, and my friends are like, where have you been? And I'm just like, well. But yeah, I noticed, like, I just don't leave my room and I don't really do anything outside of maybe, like, submitting assignments and, like, sleeping. But I think nowadays if I am really feeling that way, I kind of recognize it faster. So I'm able to usually force myself. I'm like, I have to be outside for at least one thing, and that helps me a lot. [00:24:27] Speaker A: How has it impacted your ability to show up in relationships? I know there's something we talked about a couple of days ago, like, the social isolation that comes with depression. [00:24:39] Speaker B: Yeah. I think for a long time, I used to be kind of like the type of person that would see their friends maybe like, once every couple of months. And a lot of the times that's like really not sustainable for a friendship. And I feel like that's also kind of like my social battery is like very low and under pressed and I don't really want to do that either. And I think that the thing with depression is you want to do those things. Like you want to experience social connection, but your brain has too many negative thoughts for you to be able to act like yourself and you're just constantly doubting yourself. It's a normal thing. You crack a joke and your brain will be like, you're not even funny. I don't even know why you did that. You're so. And that whole thought pattern will keep continuing all throughout the day, which is just very, very, very exhausting. And yeah, so I would be like, instead of experiencing all of that, I'd rather just stay home. Yeah. I think it would just make me not want to go. And even the person that does show up isn't who I actually am. It's like kind of like a cover of myself that I'm trying to portray so that everyone doesn't realize that I'm not feeling as up to it as I normally would be. [00:26:16] Speaker A: What does your support system look like on the days that you are struggling? [00:26:22] Speaker B: I have a lot of siblings, so. And I have pretty much like an open door policy with my siblings. And I notice especially more now that I'd like kind of to time to get to know my siblings more. They feel very comfortable going in and out of my room. And one thing that I guess I'm really thankful for is that even if I'm like really depressed and let's say I haven't left the bed the entire day, there will probably be like a very short knock and my sibling coming in to tell me about their day. [00:26:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:57] Speaker B: So I feel like even with my depression, like I could be at my lowest of the lowest. There will always be like a sibling wanting to check in on me, like, hey, can you actually drop me off really quick? Or hey, this is what happened at school today. And I really, really, really, really cherish those moments. [00:27:20] Speaker A: What about outside of your, like, household? [00:27:26] Speaker B: I know I have my therapist that I can contact. I know not everyone does this, but my therapist does allow me to test her or call her. I don't think I really use that as much because I feel like I don't really need it. But a lot of the times I feel like I would rather just kind of go for a really long walk and just sit in a spot of my neighborhood and give myself like time to Kind of of sit in my emotions for a little bit before I move out of it. And I also have my friends and, like, my cousins, and I tell them, like, hey, you know, this is something that I'm going through. And, you know, if you have any advice for me, I am very receptive to advice, or I try to be, but. But, yeah, I. I think I just take my friends and my family very close, and my therapist always leaves, like, a door open for me if I ever really need her. [00:28:32] Speaker A: I think you're very committed to healing and showing up more than you give yourself credit for. And you. You actually are open to, like, people being there for you and listening and just, like, kind of advising. But I love that you also have, like, your, like, your boundaries, and you don't let people speak for you. You tell how you feel, you know, and, like, how you can be supported. [00:29:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:03] Speaker A: I think even if someone misinterprets something, you'd be like, no, you learn how to advocate for yourself very well. Like the past three. Three to five years. [00:29:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know. I feel like I carry myself a lot with, like, the idea of knowing who I was, like, those three to five years ago, and I want, like, to make, like, that version of myself feel okay, like, at all times. It's like cradling a baby kind of thing or healing your inner child or something like that. But I just. I think I took her very seriously, and I took her needs very seriously. And now I'm like, you know what? I think we got this a little bit. I think healing means being able to show up as, like, kind of who I always wanted to be. And, yeah, it comes back to, like, what we were just talking about, but I take myself. I don't think I remember one of the first things. My therapist, My first therapist, but she ever talked to me was like, what are your reasons to kind of want to, like, continue living? You know? [00:30:26] Speaker A: And. [00:30:29] Speaker B: I think my biggest, like, reason for healing is being able to grow that list and being able to see things on that list checked off. I think that's as I continue, as I go through life, seeing more and more of those things checked off and that list just grow. Infinite has been, like, one of the best reasons that I guess I have to keep on living. [00:30:59] Speaker A: And there's a lot to live for. I love seeing you and, like, you know, our younger cousins. I like witnessing you guys experiencing things for the first time, you know, things that we got to experience, like when we're in our early 20s and stuff, and as teenagers. So it feels like re experiencing life again through another set of eyes. And it makes life even more exciting for us, you know. How has stigma around mental illness affected your life? [00:31:32] Speaker B: I think this comes back to kind of like people's idea of a lot of mental illnesses. They just really assume that you're going through a very. The word is crazy. But I feel like that doesn't even begin to describe it, but it's like a very paranoid kind of thing that they have with it. And I don't think that that's everyone's like symptom of mental illness, you know, And a lot of people are going through things that are very unseen. And even then I just feel like people don't really know what to do with it. And this stigma is kind of like, oh, well, you know, they didn't pray enough, so don't be like them, go back to the moms. And I just feel like, I wish people understood that it isn't a matter of like praying more or it isn't like just a random fit of like. People mostly think of mental illness as kind of like a manic episode or something, or like going through a very brief psychosis and then someone will pray for them and that's how it goes away. But I'm like, there's a lot of different ways to experience men mental illness. And even those people who do experience those kind of experiences is not going to go away with purely Qur' an or just prayer. And there are different resources to give them than just asking them to head to a mosque. [00:33:14] Speaker A: I feel like people stigmatize things because it helps them make it feel like it's something that's far away from them instead of realizing like, that could also be me. You know, like whether it's addiction or whether it's abuse, whether it's depression, as long as like, you make it seem like it's something that someone else has and look down on it, it makes. It gives you like a, like a fake perception that this is not something that can harm you too. [00:33:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And I also feel like a lot of people don't realize that it, like it stems from something sometimes or it doesn't always have to. But a lot of the symptoms that they see is a response to something that they don't see. And people would rather just judge you based off of the symptoms that they can see being like, oh, I feel like people think of depression is just like laying in bed and lazy and like having of dirty. And they're like, why did you let Your room get so unclean and dirty and whatever and you're just like, that's the way that they associate you with rather than like maybe there's a reason that someone can't do something. Maybe there's a reason why they need other things to make them feel okay, or there's a reason why their symptoms are showing up the way that it is, but you're only focusing on symptoms and not the actual illness happen that's causing them. [00:34:46] Speaker A: Yeah, this, this is not a question that's on the list, but it just came up to me because I think it's specific to your generation who grew up on the Internet. You guys have access to so much stuff that we didn't have growing up. I feel you guys are always been bombarded with so much information and so much change that's happened so quick. You know how has like social media and the Internet aided in your healing or harmed it? [00:35:21] Speaker B: Actually I think it's very. I mean there's been studies on this that I can't exactly name, but social media has, I think it's. Has been proven to like harm your mental health. So I'd actually say that having so much access to social media and like the whole comparison thing that makes you go through has probably harmed me more with my depression rather than aided it in any way. So I feel like I wanna. Social media is something that's hard to kind of stop using. But one thing that's always helped me right now I have a lot of like timers on my social media or I like use my social media very differently. I feel like a lot of social media is used to like connect with people. But I don't think social media is an opportunity, is a tool for you to connect with people. I think it just allows you to see people. And I think I'd rather like communicate and connect with people in my real life and maybe social media the way like, I don't know, just to keep up with mostly like pop culture and like movies and kind of those side of my interests rather than use it as like a social media platform because I feel like it's really not. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I remember a while ago we're having a conversation about how people, they romanticize depression on the Internet and like they have so much jokes about it and you're actually like, it's not as funny as they try to make it seem. You know, it's not just like staying in your room all the time. It's deeper than that, you know? [00:37:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:25] Speaker A: So do you remember that conversation we had. [00:37:28] Speaker B: I do. And I think that depression, the way that social media talks about depression kind of feeds your like comfortability and like sitting with those emotions. [00:37:40] Speaker A: Yes, that's what it was about. [00:37:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a lot harder to like break the pattern. And on social media it's kind of like, oh no, you don't want to break the pattern. It's kind of like sometimes almost cool to just keep being depressed, you know, because then it's like a part of your identity or like attached to your identity. But I think healing is a lot more fun and I think that allowing myself to change and be comfortable breaking those patterns has really made me like stop being on that side of the Internet too. And I think that's why I'm very, very careful with like cultivating my social media feed against that. Because even those negative jokes that people make, I don't think people realize that. I don't know if it's your brain misunderstanding it, but when you make those kind of negative memes and negative jokes on the Internet, it really does affect you and it's just feeding the sort of like self deprecation and the depression in your brain and like help fueling the thought pattern, the negative thought pattern and the whole being comfortable and negativity that of depression. And so I think that's kind of like my thing about social media. It just kind of allows that train of thought to continue and doesn't really embrace the idea of healing as much as the whole Internet seems to think it does. [00:39:27] Speaker A: If you don't be careful with the Internet, it'll make you think that's real life. And like real life is the Internet, you know what I mean? There's not like a shift in what's real and what's not real and that the stuff you see online, you can't actually apply it in real life. [00:39:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:47] Speaker A: And I don't know, it's not sustainable. [00:39:50] Speaker B: It is, it is not. It's definitely not sustainable. And I think those people are probably finding, trying to find coping tools as through like negative jokes and like using social media. But I think that the real, or I would say those are coping mechanisms. But real coping tools come from different strategies that you normally come across on social media. So I think, yeah, it's not as helpful as people like to say. Like there's a lot of mental health side of things coming up and now that's true that people are talking about it more. But I don't know that some parts of the social media platforms have really caught up to the fact that maybe we should push more, like here's me cleaning up my depression room rather than like just show showing it, you know, or talking about like different things that they're doing to heal from their depression rather than sitting in their depression. Because I feel like it's a lot easier to sit in those emotions and break the pattern. [00:41:04] Speaker A: Yeah. One of my favorite people that I'm following right now on Instagram, I don't know if you know her, but her page is Raquel the capacity expert. And yeah, she used to be like a therapist, but I think now she got into life coaching. I'm not sure, but she was basically saying we weren't so left in the mental health conversation. We increased our knowledge. Like we know more about it, we know the signs, we know the words, we know therapy talk. But most people just want their emotions validated and they want to be seen, they want to be heard. But nobody wants to be challenged about how to actually change your life, you know? [00:41:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:45] Speaker A: And I feel like that's what the Internet does. So we have more knowledge of like, you know, the mental health like journey diagnosis and stuff like that. But it's like what are you doing with the knowledge that you do have? Is it helping you or is it continuing your symptoms? [00:42:06] Speaker B: I think I remember this is probably something my therapist told me really early on. But she was like therapy is uncomfortable and change is uncomfortable and that becoming the person that I am. I had to deal with a lot of that uncomfortability in therapy and the call outs in therapy being like, hey, actually, you know, from my therapist before, I was able to really like dive deep into my life and get into the spa where I am now. So I think people are just struggling with the change and the change of healing patterns rather than you can come to terms with the fact that you have something. And so now that you know you have something, it is true that you are more likely to change it. But changing is so much effort. Changing is tears, changing is uncomfortable conversations, changing is realizations. And it is a lot easier. I'm not saying that it will hurt any less, but it is a lot easier to sometimes stay where you are and embrace the uncomfortability and the unknown of change. And yeah, I feel like, I think because I kind of understand both like growing up with the Internet and really just using that sometimes like a crutch or something, it you still feel the same way and I'm happy I am where I'm at now. But it didn't just like it was not easy at all to get to the person that I am now. And I think I just want people who are, I guess, experiencing or just realizing that they have. They maybe have like a mental illness or they're maybe coming to terms with their depression and seeing that. That they grow the courage and the strength to start those uncomfortable changes in their lives, to get to where I know they want to go. But it's probably very scary to start. [00:44:45] Speaker A: What have you learned about yourself? [00:44:51] Speaker B: I think I learned that. I think I learned who I am. I don't think I really had an idea of who I was until I stopped. Well, not stopped until I started, like, going to therapy and experiencing those changes. And even with, like, my depression, this is also very something recently that my therapist told me she was like, every depressive episode that I've had, like, those episodes mean something and they're probably very revealing something. And going through my depressive episode in my junior year was the reason why I got help. I clearly had it before that. [00:45:46] Speaker A: It was the wake up call. [00:45:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it was the wake up call. And then going through it again my sophomore year of college really made me almost complete 180 of a lot of my life plans. And even going through one right now, not right now, but maybe like a couple weeks back, made me realize, like, I want to, like, it made me realize, I guess, who I am outside of, like, school and like academia. And that's something that I know I struggle with, where it's like a huge thing, a pressure, you know? So I think that depression is very, very hard. But it's taught me a lot about who I am. And I like finding out who I am outside of depression and like, alongside my depression. And I don't think it's like, it's not a conversation of, like, would I be happier without it or do I want to get rid of it anymore, but more so just figuring out how to, like, walk alongside it kind of thing. And I don't know, I think it's taught me that I can still experience happiness. I still have, like, so much love to live for, and I can experience very meaningful friendships. Even though I have depression, even though I feel very, very badly sometimes, I can still experience and do a lot of things. Like, my depression isn't the end all, be all. And that's something that I used to think for so, such a long time. But coming to terms with that really made me realize, like, I can have, like, entire life outside of feeling the way that I do when I depressed. [00:47:50] Speaker A: Yes. Earlier you said my first Therapist. So how do you know once you graduate from the first one and move to the second one or once we just end it all together? [00:48:08] Speaker B: My first therapist, she actually was moving jobs, so I was like, oh, well, okay. But even a little bit before that, she was someone that knew me, like, a lot as a teen and wasn't, like, really understanding that I was going through kind of, like, adult problems now. I think that's what made me realize I didn't like what she was saying because it felt like the version of me that needed to hear it didn't exist anymore. I wasn't. I was like, this is 19, 20, or no, this was 18, 19 version of me. They didn't really need to hear 16, 17, in need of therapy. And so I think that's what made me realize maybe if I'm getting nothing from these conversations, and I still feel the same way, like, before and after them, because I feel like every conversation I have with my therapist has been useful, has been helpful, and I either feel really happy coming out of it, or I'm there, like, near tears with another, like, just realization or something, you know? But she's asked me to, like, sit with, like, a uncomfortable new thing. So if I'm no longer. If it feels very stagnant to you and you start, like, begrudging the time that therapy starts, you gotta get a new one very quick. And it's scary because there might be, like, some time where you don't have a therapist, but I'd much rather go through the time that I didn't have a therapist, then go back to, like, my old one, rather than taking the time that it took to find my new one. [00:49:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And those, like, that gap where you don't have someone, that's when you can actually start using your tools for real, you know, and, like, actually, like, relying and using your support system and start journaling, you know, exercising, stuff like that. [00:50:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:14] Speaker A: So, like, you don't have to always rely on someone. [00:50:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's true, depending on where you're at in your therapy journey. For me, I definitely still needed one because I was like, oh, no. I think it was very hard going from, like, therapy every week to none for, like, a couple months. So even just being able to talk to someone about all of my feelings and just not having that anymore was pretty rough. But it still. It felt a lot better getting my new therapist and her helping me with those past couple of months rather than, like, I don't know what would have been beforehand where I really felt like Stagnant. And I wasn't like getting anything out of therapy anymore. [00:51:08] Speaker A: Is there like religion or race or gender matter to you or is it more about their expertise? [00:51:18] Speaker B: I don't think their religion matters to me at all. But as being like a Somali American, I think that was like a big deciding factor in getting therapy. I knew, I want a Somali woman. That's what I should have said. Being a Somali woman. I was like, I know no matter what I told them, like during my intake, she needs to be a person of color. I want a woman. And our male adopted. Tell me about. I mean a male therapist. Tell me about. I don't know. I don't know what they would say. But that's not the advice I'm looking for. And I think it makes me feel comfortable talking to a woman than I would feel comfortable talking to a man with a lot of the personal stuff. Like if I want to talk about like I don't know, my love life or something. [00:52:10] Speaker A: You should tell the listeners about your college career. Like what was your goal in the beginning and then how it shifted and then your plans for the future. [00:52:22] Speaker B: Okay. I first graduated high school, I was like, I don't know what I want to do. I don't really have any life plans at the moment. And I think that's also something that I wanted. This is off topic, but the depression kind of robs you up is you don't really think about. You're not able to think about a future where you're feeling different than just not. You're like, when will feeling like this stop? So yeah, I feel like therapy getting help was like, I actually have to start planning my future to help you. [00:53:06] Speaker A: Visualize the reality of your future. [00:53:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And I was like, I don't really have. I don't know if I want to go to college, but my mom says I have to go to college. So I went to a community college for the first two years and I thought I just wanted to be an ultrasound tech because that seemed like the fastest way out of college. But no, I was like, I think I have to get a bachelor's in some fate. And I really like biology in high school. So I was like, I guess I'm going to be a bio major. Bio major seems pretty pre med, so why not do the whole pre med thing? Bio majoring. So I started taking most of those classes and like my prerequisites for that. But I remember my sophomore year of college. So like last year I was taking bio 211, which is like animal related biology and you're doing a lot of dissections. And I was like, let's pause the table, guys. This is like, not what I want to do at all. I don't want to dissect anything. And I think that I forgot I used to faint every time I get my lead drawn. And I know there are doctors who deal with that, but this is not something I'm looking forward to dealing with. I was like this every time I entered class. I felt gross. And I just kept thinking about how, like, I would probably feel gross taking care of so many patients because I'm like, I don't want to be all up in people's business at all, in any capacity, you know? And taking that class really made me sad because I was like, well, I don't know what I want to do anymore because I just think about, like, I have. I did not like it at all. And yeah, after that, I think that also kind of triggered another like, depressive episode because I really didn't know what I wanted to do. And I know, like, living in Seattle, seasonal depression, your winters hit so hard. So I just stopped showing up to class and I didn't go to class for like the last three weeks of the quarter, which is literally like so close to finals week. And my professor hits me up and he's like, hey, you're from this class, by the way. But, like, what do you want to do? You know? And so I kind of was just telling him, like, I'm feeling so much like this and I'm like breathing here my entire, like lifetimes right now. So I was like, you know what, you can take like an incomplete and come back to this next quarter if you feel like it, but it'll probably just show up as an incomplete, you know. I was like, thank you so much. Don't know what I'm gonna do. And so I think my spring quarter, I remember, like taking some side classes and stuff like that. So I was like, I'm just going to see how much I like that more because I took Psych 101 my first year, now my second year, so let's just see where that goes. That year I didn't take any that quarter. I didn't take any psych classes. But through the summer I just kind of started to decide, like, looking into it more, looking into where I wanted to transfer and figuring out how to do all of that. So I was think looking at some of the pathways to like, the psychology major. I was like, I think this is Something that I want to do, you know, this is something that I want to try. And so my fall quarter, I decided to take all of my psych prereqs. And I think I ended up like really liking those classes. They like taught me so much about how, I guess even it had the parts of bio that I really like, where you're learning things and not just doing a lot of majors is you're just like doing math problems or you're doing a lot of like calculations and things like that. And I didn't really like that or something else I don't think really would have fit me. But I really like how much bio taught me about people. And you just learn so many different parts about the human body. You learn about why everything works the way that it does. And I remember I took like a neuroscience class in like high school too, and I just loved it so much because I'm like, I really like knowing why does my brain work the way that it does. And it also kind of helped me understand my depression too, learning so much about like that neuroscience class and like the psychology class being like an introduction where they did talk about mental disorders and mental illnesses and things like that. So it really brought me closer to like the subject of psychology. And I ended up transferring and decided to go a four year and doing full psychology now. And I think that really the whole just 180 that I did was kind of really needed. But I think all of my experiences from just randomly deciding to take a neuroscience class in high school, the psych 101 that I took my first gift year, my prerequisites and psych all helped me kind of find a love for psychology that I was like, maybe I should pursue this more. And now I am. [00:59:05] Speaker A: There were all, all those little things were guiding you to your career. [00:59:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't know, I feel like now I. It really did help me find my career because I think it's so odd right now. But I talk about it a lot, how I've always found myself working in a job where I'm a pottery camp assistant for a bunch of elementary school kids. Or even this summer I'm working at like a community center for a bunch of kids. And I like, I have a lot of younger siblings. So I've always really liked working with kids, you know, and I think that's something that I kind of want to do with my psychology degree. And that kind of made me really start looking into, I guess like child and like adolescent psychology majors and not majors. I Should say master programs or. Right now, I feel like I'm pretty like 70%. Well, not 70, maybe more like 60%. Looking at, like, school psychology and how you really like. I like the way that it helps a lot of people who are in school kind of get the help they need so early on and really catch on to behaviors. Because I think being in homeschool kind of really robbed me of that, where there was no one to really notice the fact that I was depressed until, I want to say, high school, where my high school. My school counselor really kind of caught on and kind of was like, hey, you know, she really just started meeting with me weekly. And I know she wasn't like the. But being a school counselor and talking to me so much, talking to my teachers on behalf of me, making sure that I graduated, that's probably, like, something I will. I don't think there's enough, like, gratitude I have for her. Anything that could describe it, you know, And I think that's something that I really want to kind of dive into as a career where I'm able to help people realize kind of, like, early on still, I guess you can still complete school despite everything. And, like, people, I guess, have their ideas about, like, mental illnesses, but you can go to school. It doesn't matter what mental illness you have, and not really. And I know there's a lot of barriers, but I hope people know that school and academia and higher academia is always an option for you. And that's something that I really want to help other kids realize, because I think that's something my school counselor did for me. I would have never started my college journey if she didn't make me register for community college, you know? So I think that's something that I also want to be able to do. [01:02:34] Speaker A: Yes, you're getting to be who you needed. [01:02:38] Speaker B: Well. [01:02:40] Speaker A: And what better than having that lived experience and then also, like, looking like the community of the people who need it the most, you know, because earlier you were saying, we didn't record this, but you were saying, like, in Seattle, there's, like, the Asian referral services. There's. I think you said Mexican or Ethiopian. [01:03:04] Speaker B: No, not Ethiopian, but I know there's a Latino one. [01:03:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:09] Speaker B: And, yeah, I wish there was, like, a African counseling and referral services kind of thing. I wish we had more, I guess, mental health and counseling resources in my community that come from people of my community. Because I think seeing that is so profound. Seeing people who look like you, help you and want better for you is probably the reason That I really am the way that I am. I guess I have so many examples of who I want to be from. I guess from like, college speaking standpoint, I see what college graduation looks like because of the people around me, you know, And I want other people to feel comfort in knowing that there are people who look like you that are struggling with depression, too. Because I think growing up, I really did think that I was probably, like, the only depressed kid ever in my community. And I'm like, that's so not true. Like, I can't be the only Somali kid that's felt depression, you know? So, yeah, I just. I want more for my community to be able to network and grow within each other and really build a space for all of the mental health resources that is really needed in the, I want to say, like, African community. Yes. [01:04:56] Speaker A: One of my favorite things that I attended this year was the. The mental health conference that was. It was led by Abelahi Gerano and Hangatu Dawood and a lot of, like, other therapists. Samira Omar, I think you know her. Right. It was planned by the trauma community, Oroma community, and the Somal community, you know, And I've never seen nothing like that. I never see. I never saw religion, like the Muslim religion and mental health, like, tied together, you know, I never saw ships talking about mental health or Muslim therapists all coming together to do a symposium, you know? [01:05:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:37] Speaker A: So I don't. That just. That heals something in me because I'm so happy that the generations after us are growing up with this. You know, this is something that's going to be their norm. [01:05:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And I feel like it helps a lot of kids who maybe see, like, the only examples of religion they see is, hey, you just need to pray more and maybe your depression will go away. But that's just not true. And it feels very, very validating to see a lot of shafts and like, different. I guess religious figures in my community come together and be like, no, this is an actual clinical mental health or clinical mental illness that people are facing and just tell people that it is real and validate the people that are going through that experience. And it kind of informs. I know that religion is something that a lot of people in my community hold very closely and kind of informs them too, that, hey, these people, the different people in my. These religious figures are able to inform them of how to deal with things like that, rather than just assuming maybe your kid isn't praying enough and told them to go pray, maybe to extra, they'll be Praying. But no, these people are saying that's wrong. You know, let's get them some counseling. Let's get them some help. Let's get them some actual formal clinical advice to help them. [01:07:18] Speaker A: Or even. Even outside of their behavior, or not even outside of, like, their religiosity. It's. When you see your child's behavior, you know, like, everything is not bad behavior. Sometimes it could be they're having mental health struggles, you know, outside of depression. If you see your kids starting to rebel, like, ask them what's going on. You know, don't. Everything doesn't have to be attached to. Are they being religious or not? [01:07:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't know. I feel like people also. I was just thinking about this pretty recently, too, but when people think of depression, a lot of people think of, like, the numbness and like, the sadness and the really depressive feelings that you feel, and then not being able to, I guess, not enjoying things and I guess those kind of dimmer emotions. But I think I responded pretty angrily to depression, too. It's very angry to realize that you don't feel. You just feel like you're being punished for something you didn't even cause, you know, and especially when people. The religious people are telling you you just haven't prayed enough, you just grow angry with that. What do you mean, I haven't prayed enough? People are praying. People are trying everything, and they're angry with the results, or they're angry that they continue to feel like this. Like they feel everything is. I don't know. It's like these are just emotions. Anger is an emotion that you can receive, respond to something the same way that you can respond to sadness. So responding to depression with anger is a lot more common than people think. [01:09:08] Speaker A: I feel like anger is a more socially accepted emotion compared to sadness. [01:09:14] Speaker B: And so when people respond with. I don't think it's really explosive and volatile, but like, I guess more like redder emotions like anger or irritability. A lot of people respond to that very, very negatively. And they don't even begin to think of, like, there's probably. I don't think people would ever associate anger with depression, but that is very, very much there. So I think people will be able to understand more of these things as it continues to. I guess we talk about all the different ways to experience depression. [01:09:58] Speaker A: And I. I heard that black women have it the hardest because they're not even allowed to get angry, you know, or if they are irritable or whatever. People view it, like, as an Attitude compared to, oh, she's actually sad. Like, no one gives her permission to be sad. [01:10:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think people will probably still feel sad, but they'll be like, it's able. You're able to dismiss someone else's sadness more so than you are able to dismiss someone else's anger. So when there's someone else anger, you just respond with the anger. But you don't ever think to. To really dive deeper when you first notice the sad, and you just turn away the anger. And this person is still stewing in their depression. So I think it's just like, I think a lot of the negative feelings that I don't want to say negative because I feel like there are no, like, true negative feelings. I'll just say, like, red. I feel like a lot of these red feelings are met with unnecessary, like, vitriol rather than met with, I guess, the kindness that someone needs in that moment. And I know it's very hard. Like, someone is very, like, they're angry, but they're not really angry at you. Chances are they're very angry with themselves and angry at the world and angry with, like, feeling punished for something that they did not cause, rather than, like, it being in any way attached to you. [01:11:40] Speaker A: Okay, I start to get ready to wrap it up. I'm asking you one last question. What's one message you share with someone who was currently struggling? [01:11:53] Speaker B: I. I didn't always think that I could not, I guess, have parts of my life where I don't really feel depressed. And so you could. I know that when a lot of people are first experiencing depression, most of that time you have spent months depressed and you don't really get to see, like, I guess, the light at the end of the tunnel. But there is a way not letting depression take over your life. And there is so much of your life to plan outside of depression. And yeah, I really hope that you're able to see what life is like outside of your depression or alongside your depression. And you shouldn't ever have, like, a feeling, fear of backsliding or things getting worse again, because even if you feel depressed again, you will still be in a different place than you were the first time. And there's a lot of things for you to see. There's a lot of things for you to experience, and you just, you have to go find it. It's waiting for you. [01:13:16] Speaker A: What is your why? [01:13:20] Speaker B: I think my first why that and this was like, when my therapist was asking me when I was like, 17, she was like, what reasons do you have right now to like keep living. And this was, I was very young. One of the most like smallest things that I said then was I really want to get my license so that I can be the kid. I can be the older sister that pulls up and drops her younger sibling off to school with music playing very loudly in the background. And I know it seems like really ridiculous, but for like 17 year old me who really didn't have a lot of reasons to continue, that has been like one of the best feelings ever. Completing that and getting to do that. [01:14:16] Speaker A: And then one last thing. What would you say to parents who see their teens are struggling with something right now? Like, what is the best way that they can support them? [01:14:34] Speaker B: I remember my mom, what she did was and you don't want to have this. I think you need to have a conversation with your teen and you don't want to have this around any of their siblings or around anyone else that like, not in front of another parent. I would say it's probably that will feel like they're kind of teaming up on you. Like one parent, my mom, she was like, let's go to ihop. And that IHOP is very suspicious. We never go out to eat. She was like, hey, you know, like, what's going on? And I don't know, it won't, I won't always or I won't say I. But I don't think a teenager, because I know I wasn't always reciprocal or like very like telling of what was going on. But if you can find any time where you can create more spaces for a very vulnerable conversation, I would do that. I would try really, really hard to create a very comfortable, very safe space for them where they feel comfortable talking to you about it. And I think it's a lot, it's very hard to say, like, what did I do wrong with my parenting that made my kid feel very depressed. And now your teen has to kind of like hold your hand and maybe like, no, no, it's not you. But I would like highly suggest with going that route with feeling like you failed as a parent because now that takes the conversation away from them. And so I would really just focus on. I know my team is struggling. I want them to talk to me about it. I'm going to create a very safest space that I know of for them to be vulnerable and I'm just going to listen and whatever they want or need is within like boundaries or whatever. Of course, is what I'm going to try my best to do and I think that is part of probably the best answer that I have. [01:16:48] Speaker A: Yeah. One of my favorite things that I like that your mom does is she cares individually about each relationship she has with her kid, you know, and she's a very like, aware of the changes and she's not afraid to seek out people like whether she messages me or whether she messages my mom. And it's not like she's telling your business, but more so she's open to receiving support from other people compared to people who they hold everything in, you know, because they think it's a reflection of their self. [01:17:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:26] Speaker A: So, yeah, I think like all parents, all relatives should also implement the same thing. You and your child should be a team, you know, they're not. Like your child's mental health is not something to be embarrassed about. [01:17:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of what you were saying. I don't want to interrupt you, but your parent, your kids mental health experiences is not a reflection of who you are as a parent. Despite like everything else right now that like, shouldn't be the focus. It's about creating the support system. [01:18:07] Speaker A: Yes. Well, thank you for joining me today. I'm happy we're finally able to make this happen because we've been discussing it for a while and I'm happy that you're open to do it. And I didn't make you tell too much of your business, right? [01:18:25] Speaker B: No, I knew I had boundaries. There are stuff that I was like. [01:18:29] Speaker A: I'm very tight lid. Yes. And I just hope that this episode reaches whoever it needs to reach, you know, and the person who's like, in the midst of it right now, just knowing that there is like, there is a future to be excited about, you know, and yeah, I'm just excited to see more of your life, to make more memories with you and. And I can't wait to see the day you graduate. Yes, I'm really excited. But thank you for joining us. To you and the viewers, this is. You can Watch us on YouTube, listen to us on Spotify and anywhere where you can find podcasts, Apple Music, Amazon. And if this episode touched you today, just subscribe and share it with anyone who needs to hear it. Thank you. And Asalam Alikum. [01:19:29] Speaker C: Holding. Holding on to longing. Holding on to nostalgia. Holding on to home. Holding on to grief. Holding on to the memory. Holding on. Holding. Holding on for your life. Holding on to root. Holding on to culture. Holding your breath. Holding on to faith. Holding on to God. Holding. Holding for the future. Holding. Holding on to the Ummah One story at a time.