Sex Education Through an Islamic Perspective w/Faisa Farole| Ilm and Amaanah Season 1; Ep. 5

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sat assalamu alaikum and welcome to Iman Amanah. [00:00:28] Speaker B: This is Safiyah, your host, and today I am here with Faiza. We will be discussing a sensitive but important topic which is sexual education through an Islamic perspective. Something so natural but surrounded with so much shame and secrecy. Today we're going to be talking about where does this come from, the effects of it, and what are some solutions that can be. What are some solutions we can create to solve the issue and educate our communities better through an Islamic lens. Faiza, I'll have you introduce yourself and then we can go from there. [00:01:02] Speaker A: Perfect. Thank you so much, Safiya, for having me. My name is Faiza Frole. I am the founder and director of Global Perinatal Services. I am also a licensed midwife in the state of Washington, own and operate the only black run and operated birth center in our state as well. I have. A few years ago, I went back to school, got my master's degree in maternal child health systems, and my capstone project was done on sex education from Islamic perspective. And I'm really happy to be here today to discuss this very important topic, like Safiyeh said, that most people overlook. [00:01:42] Speaker B: So just like a backstory, this episode is seven years in the making. I remember back in 2018 when I did another episode on my other podcast, Shahi Rashaiko Faiza, and we were talking about pregnancy and it's like the experience at the hospital for Muslim women and black women. And after the interview ended, Faiza pulled me aside and said we should have a panel that discusses sexual education within the Muslim community. I remember I was so shocked when I heard that because I didn't think I could ever do this topic, you know, and I'm like, that's so. It was so taboo to me at the time. Seven years later, like, you know, now that it's post Covid and even just like in my own personal life, I see the necessity for this conversation because there's a lot of things I see within people of my age group that people don't address, but it's important to talk about, like when it comes to STDs or even dating as Muslims and just getting ready for marriage and all those conversations that we refuse to have and the consequences of it are starting to show now. [00:02:54] Speaker A: Yeah, so true. So true. Yeah. One of the reasons why I sort of picked this topic was because in 2023, I believe the state of Washington sort of rolled out Flash curriculum, which is a sex education curriculum designed to help Prevent teen pregnancies. STIs or sexually transmitted infections. And so I really wanted to sort of help the community navigate once this, you know, new curriculum was rolled out. Because the curriculum is not just for middle and high school anymore, it is also for elementary school. Right. But it teaches different things at different levels. So I really wanted to start the conversation with the community. And as you've read my. This, the. My capstone project, I interviewed, I had three different folks groups and I had, you know, a group that was just for the moms, a group that was just for the dads, and I had a group that was, you know, Muslim teachers and scholars alike. And I wanted to just sort of start the conversation because like you said, we. We think even it's dirty to talk, to even say sex. You know what I mean? Sex education. But when the studies show like this particular, like the flash curriculum, that there's actually a decrease in teens actually wait to have sex education, who do. To have sex, I should say, who do take the, you know, the education piece of it. So that's a good thing. And that shows you when people know, they do better. You know, the other awesome thing about this curriculum is it was designed by King county, like I said, and it is being used over 40 states now in the US which I think is really cool. But I also know there's been a clash with the community when it was rolled out. I know a couple years ago there was a protest happening and all that stuff. The family. The good thing about this curriculum is, again, King county is not paying me. I'm not hired by King County. But by all means, if they're listening, I would be more than happy to work with them. God knows I did try to reach out in the past. But what the beautiful thing about it is, it's not just strangers teaching your students or your children. There's a piece that gets to be, you know, the kids get to take home homework piece to sort of help facilitate families to have a discussion too. Because oftentimes it's just. There's so much hesitancy around it, right? And when kids ask, they get turned down. Or like, you just can't ask. You know what I mean? Because I. I've never had sexual, like, chat with my parents, with my mom. You know what I mean? [00:05:27] Speaker B: Like, you already know. You can't. You didn't even have to say anything. It's the fact that because they don't say anything, you know, you just. [00:05:34] Speaker A: Yeah, you just can't talk about this stuff. And then of all people, with your parents but if you don't have this conversation with your kids, other people will have it. And the way other people tell it is not gonna be as gentle or. You know what I mean? Or as supportive as you. So why not have this discussion? Because for me, people say, you know, health, health, like sex education is part of health education, you know, so when you talk to your kids about these things, the kids will know what to expect. They'll know. They'll make better choices, you know what I mean? And better decisions that way. So, yeah, I'm a mom myself, too, and I do have this discussion with Mike. I've had it. I continue to have with my kids. And it's. Nothing is taboo, and my kids feel free to come and approach me and talk to me about these things, too. And I actually enjoy that when they do that because I can tell them how it is from the medical perspective, and I can also tell them what Islam is saying about this particular topic, too. So, yeah, I think it's a missed opportunity when parents don't talk. [00:06:34] Speaker B: How does your job as a midwife connect to sexual education? [00:06:41] Speaker A: Yeah, beautiful question. My job as a midwife, we talk about, for instance, contraceptions, right? There are still adult women that are just. They don't want to hear it or because they've heard some crazy stuff about it, or it's just, you can't. You shouldn't just stop having kids, because that's not Islam. But we know that's not. What. Do you know what I mean? Islam does not prohibit child spacing. You know what I mean? So. So that's one thing, right? When people don't know, even in that adulthood, that they don't know, they don't know what to do with the little information they have. And as a result, sometimes you have women having children year after year, which puts this. The women at a higher risk of, like, postpartum depression, or it just increases, you know, her chances. And some people have had postpartum depression just because it's. They're not giving their bodies enough time to recover, right? They're not giving themselves enough time to enjoy the previous child, right? And they have a guilt. It's just a lot, right? So that's one. That's one thing. And then the other thing is, you know, educating people about STIs, right? Sexually transmitted infections, because these are things that people do get or pass around, you know, sexually. So if somebody has a particular, you know, let's say herpes, right? And during your pregnancy, if you've had even once in your life. Right. An outbreak or herpes, you get treated during pregnancy, you are still at risk of passing it to your child if you don't get on suppressant medication. Right. At 36 weeks and on you have to take medications like via to suppress an outbreak because if you have those lesions, you cannot have a vaginal birth. If you do have it, the baby might get you really, really sick. Right. So all of these things are important things for people to know. Right. And again, it goes back to that sex education piece because this is what our children are being taught, you know, which, which, which is a really good information for them to have. [00:08:44] Speaker B: I'm going to read some of the findings from your dissertation. I really enjoyed reading your essay because first of all, I didn't think she and parents would come together to like be open to even doing the, what is it called, folks group, the focus group. [00:09:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I tell you, it was not easy to gather people around. Yeah, but it, I mean, because I think of all the groups, the group that had the scholars and the teachers and the scholars was, was a lot more, I guess, relaxed about the topic. Do you know what I mean? [00:09:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:23] Speaker A: Just because they've already, they have that, that education, they can, you know, sort of affirm what I was asking them. So it was weird because it was, as you can see, it was women and men mixed together, that group, which was important for me to get both voices. So yeah, initially recruiting people was difficult, but when we got together it wasn't that bad. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Some of the findings were Muslim parents are not opposed to sex education, but are concerned that the current curricula does not incorporate an Islamic perspective. They agree that information regarding sex education should be provided to every child and adolescent. But they emphasize the importance of parents having the initial conversations about sex education at home to introduce the topic from an Islamic perspective. And the ideal to start sex education programs is 10 or in fifth grade. And they wanted a Muslim person trained in teaching sex education programs to teach the Muslim students and that they should be offered in gender based groups due to modesty and to make each gender comfortable asking questions and some of the topics that they believe should be included is abstinence, contraception, physiological changes, STD prevention, responding to peer pressure, inappropriate such as physiology of sex, sexual violence, religious ethics, social emotional aspects of sexuality and abstinence should be at the forefront and also preventing STIs and unwanted pregnancies. Do you think this could realistically be taught in school settings or is this something that the dukes should teach? [00:11:00] Speaker A: I think school settings, this could be definitely taught. But of course the school districts need to be willing to hire somebody because for the Muslims, for the Muslim parents, it was really, really important that the information comes from a Muslim teacher. Just because there's, you know, form of haya, form of modesty like that, you deliver this information. Right. And I also thought it was interesting that they wanted it to be like gender based, you know, but if you look at it, what they're asking for, the topics, they're the same things that are taught in the Flash curriculum. It's not too far fetched, you know what I mean? So it's just small changes that they wanted, you know, the two particular. One being the teacher has to be somebody with Islamic background and then it be gender based, which I think, you know, I mean, you have Catholic schools that do, you know, gender based classes anyways, so it wouldn't, it wouldn't be. I don't think it's asking a lot because it is in the school's best interest to make sure that all of their students get this education and not dismiss it just because handful of parents are like not understanding exactly what's happening. Right. So I think, but by putting it this way, the schools might put the parents, even the reluctant parents, at ease to wanting to allow their children to attend these classes, which I think is the ultimate goal. And then it's also interesting that the curriculum also sends homework home for the kids and you know, to have that dialogue with their parents, the students. But also the, the group that I, you know, the folks group that I interviewed also said that they would want the parents to be the first ones to start having this conversation. Perhaps the parents won't just start doing it and they need something more structure, you know, the school to send home. Maybe the school should send this stuff home before they should, you know, start the actual class. Do you know what I mean? So I think, yeah, so it's. They're not asking like, they're not asking a lot anything different in my opinion. [00:12:55] Speaker B: So, yeah, I see nowadays like in Seattle where a lot of parents, they're moving their kids to Egypt or Kenya because of like the lgbt and yeah, they'd rather their child just like not be taught about that than to teach them the appropriate education. [00:13:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:15] Speaker B: Do you think that causes more harm? [00:13:17] Speaker A: I think it does. First of all, I don't, I think a kid who was born in America, getting them out of this country and then just. I don't think it's fair, first of all, to the children Right. Parents should leverage this and use this to teach their children what Islam is saying, you know, because for me as a parent, I have to be my children's first teacher, right? I can't. I can't let the school, like, do that for me solely, even if it's Muslim majority countries, you know, so. So if I'm not involved, you know, it's not right to the kid too, you know, so I don't like dragging. I think this stuff exists even in Middle Eastern countries. It exists. There are, you know, LGBTQ groups there too. So it's like, you can't hide your kids from these realities forever. So I think, again, the parents should use this opportunity to have this conversation and start early. This is why it's important to start early, you know, to tell them it's normal for you to be, you know, if you're experiencing any gender identity crisis and things like that, right? But to also affirm them that, you know, Allah did not make mistake by putting them in this body. Do you know what I mean? So I think parents should actually use this time to use to have that conversation with their kids rather than just, you know, uprooting them and taking them place that they don't know anything about. So, yeah, again, you can't run away from responsibilities. You as a parent should be the first one to have these discussions and don't expect teachers to do it. And the other thing is, you know, sexual assault, right, Is one of the things also the curriculum teaches too, because, you know, just because, again, we're Muslims, you know, we are not immune to, you know, our kids having sexual assaults inflicted on them. It happened especially sometimes it's even come from people who are teaching the dean. Do you know what I mean? So it's very important for the parents to have the discussion with the kids. Like elementary school. People freak out. What are they teaching my kids in elementary school? Why the kids need sex education in elementary school? It's teaching. It's not about. They're not teaching them about STIs or about using condoms. You know, they're teaching them about good and bad touches. Do you know what I mean? And social, emotional and things like that. So kids need to be able to put things into words. So if they're experiencing, may Allah protect all of our kids from such things. But it has happened and it's continuing to happen, you know, so it's important. Again, it's not. It happens in Muslim majority countries and it's happening here as well. So I don't think that's a solution. I don't think taking your kids to another country is a solution at all. [00:16:00] Speaker B: And at the end of the day, they come back to America anyway. [00:16:03] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. [00:16:04] Speaker B: When they get older, they always come back. [00:16:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:06] Speaker B: It's still regardless of what age you take them or bring them back. Yeah, the reality still exists. [00:16:12] Speaker A: Exactly. The reality still exists. And the other thing is when the kids are old enough, right? If a kid wants to go, you know, to the Middle east to learn Arabic, you know, to study the deen, like I'm all for that, that's like their choice. Right. But little kids, you know, 7, 10 year old who are like, who grew up here basically, and you're taking them out. I don't like that idea. And then the other thing is oftentimes families fall apart because of this, this uprooting that happens, Right. Because now the mom and dad are staying separate, right. And then things happen. Right. And so it's like, yeah, it's, I don't think, I don't think uprooting the family is for everybody. And I don't think people should do it just because they're running away from this, you know. Fawahish. Yeah. [00:16:58] Speaker B: What does Islam say about the importance of knowledge and education in general? And how would that extend to sexual education? [00:17:06] Speaker A: You know, like the, you know, as we all know, like the first verse that came down in the Quran was read, you know, so, and to read, it's not just to read, you know, the Quran and, you know, pounder on it, but it's also to read, you know, man made, what do you call knowledge? Man made, you know what I mean? To seek man made knowledge as well. So which is why it's, when you know, you do better. If you don't know, you don't know how to, you know what I mean, how to do better. This is why during Rasul's time, people didn't used to shy away asking him about all these questions because it's like, like your kids, if you don't teach them, how do you expect them to know? You know, as a parent, my oldest child, I had, and I, and I, and I was in my 20s when I had my, when I had him, I had a moment. I'm like, he doesn't know because I've never taught him. Do you know what I mean? Like, I had one of those parent moments that I was just like, it just gave me such a perspective. I'm like, I can't expect him to know what I know at this age, you know what I mean, if I didn't teach him, he won't know. So, like, taking time and then not. Knowledge is not about, you know, shying away of things and choosing what you want to, you know, answer and what you don't want to answer. It's. It's. I mean, come on. Some people used to ask him these sensitive questions. Yeah, who are you? You know what I mean? Not to talk to people about. So I think it is up on. Parents should encourage their kids getting very, like, very, very vast education about everything. And again, like I said at the beginning, I think sex education is part of health education. And you want your children to be healthy and rounded individuals, and this is something that they should be able to because their other friends in the classroom know things about. You know what I mean? So why not allow them to also be competitive in that. In that area as well? So, yeah, I think knowledge is very important. [00:19:06] Speaker B: And the dean also says knowledge is worship too. Like seeking knowledge. [00:19:10] Speaker A: It's a form of worship. Yeah, exactly. Which. Which I love you. It's. I mean, Islam is so beautiful. And as Muslims, we should feel privileged to be Muslims. Right? Because, like, basically some of these things, it's like our book already has taught us, you know, the hadith from Solacem already, you know, like this. We have backing for all of them. Right. And so why are we acting like we're from the medieval? Do you know what I mean? We're like the pioneers of knowledge. And all of a sudden it's like we want to deprive our children from knowledge. No, you shouldn't do that. Who knows, this kid might actually have a career in this thing. They might revolutionize this whole topic that we're just speaking about. So. Yeah, and sometimes it's really interesting because parents themselves are learning while they're talking to the kids about these things, especially with this curriculum, you know, that sends stuff home, which is great, because it just goes to tell you, the parents were not taught about this stuff too, you know, and now they're learning through their kids too, which I think it's always good when you learn things with your kids as well. Yeah. [00:20:20] Speaker B: Why do you think sexual education is often viewed as taboo in our communities? Like, does it come from culture? Does it come from your own personal family? Yeah, because the religion doesn't view it as taboo. [00:20:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't. Because I was just thinking to myself, you know, how, you know, having larger family is encouraged because professor told us he wants his nation to be the largest nation, you know, yeah. And all that stuff. And I'm like, how can you do that if you're not having. How can you do that if you're not having? You know, and sex is not just having. Reproducible. Right. In Islam, again, they Rasol saksam actually taught these to have is like the women has to also enjoy it too. So this is just not something that's for the man. Right. And this is not. And there are religion, you know, that it's all about reproducing. It's not like that in Islam. That's why child spacing is actually fine. And it's encouraged for people to do so. I don't understand where is. I think it's again, it's. We make our cultures convoluted it so much that we make it now. Like we think it's. It's a religion that you can't talk or people think if you teach young people they're gonna go ahead and have sex. Do you know what I mean? [00:21:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:37] Speaker A: If you teach them. I tell people often have young women come through and you know, and witness births and see if they want to have kids. You know what I mean? Because again, when people know they. They do better, you know, so. So I think it's. It's very important for. Again, it's a culture that makes these things taboo. And you know, it's. I also think it's the culture of, you know, that puts. I don't know, like it's almost suppressing women and women's feelings and women's. You know what I mean? Especially sexually. I think that's where that comes from too. Like, adults cannot talk, you know, like your grandma, your mother would tell you not to talk about this stuff because it's not. It's not a ladylike to talk about this stuff. And then of course, the boys are not being talked to and then it's. It's really. I don't even know. I just think it's. It's cultures that really mess. Mess it up. But I am a big proponent of like people, young people, when they're about to get married, like they should attend a sex education, honestly. And I'm more than happy to facilitate that because people really need to know, like how to make each other happy in that sense too. Again, it is part of our health, you know, and things like that. And what. What is abnormal. Right. And so the person's able to seek when there is something that they think is abnormal too. So yeah, I think it's our cultures that mess us Up. Yeah. [00:23:03] Speaker B: I was thinking about the idea of fgm. [00:23:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:07] Speaker B: And how as soon as a girl is born, people start thinking about her body, you know, her reproductive health or whatever, but in a negative way. Exactly. Like when they use FGM to get rid of her pleasure. [00:23:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:20] Speaker B: Or make her not have sex, but then there's nothing for the boys, you know, and it's like if you're starting that early, you could also start education that early, too. But it's like we use sex education in a negative way to inflict harm, but not to educate. [00:23:38] Speaker A: That's exactly what I mean by, like, it's like unfair to the, to the women. It's almost like targeting the women. Suppressing the women or the girls. Exactly. The fg, fgmc, you know, female gender mutilation or cutting is what they're preferring nowadays. It's almost like. Yeah, it's. It's suppressing women's desires even though, you know, there's more to it. There's more science to, you know, than just removing the person's glitters or whatever. Right. But yeah, it's like that. It's almost like it has to be like the man's. To the man's satisfaction, you know, that's why the woman needs to be really nice and tight and. You know what I mean? All of these things. But of course, it has ramifications, like during birth, you know, too, it has like, there's like one through four, you know, levels of fg, fgmc. And some women, they have it so bad that they have to re. They have to be reopened. And that's the other thing too, like talking like to the. The parents, especially the mothers, about the, the negative effect this has on, like, childbearing women during birth. Some people have to be. Oftentimes, like nowadays we don't do episiotomy, they call it when you cut the person to make room for the baby to be birthed. But almost always, especially when women has the third or the fourth, whatever degree of the fgmc, we like, you have to have to do that episiotomy to help get the baby out, you know, and then you have to restitch this person up and then they have this whole recovery period that they have to do, which is not comfortable at all, you know. So that is again, something else that could also be used to discuss within the. The frame of sex education. Again. It's just like if girls, like, by the way, our state, in 2019, it became illegal to do that. I am part of King County Department of Health and a bunch of other organizations are part of it. And I'm also part, like part of that community, the FGMC Committee of Washington, where we actually just, we are going to be rolling out our second year of. The committee is basically to educate the masses about the fact that it's still happening. Right. People taking their girls out, that's the other thing. Because if you give young girls that verbiage, then they'll be able to express what happened to them when they went, when they went to Kenya or Somalia on that, you know, family vacation and things like that. So, yeah, because, you know, people are unfortunately taking their children out and, and getting this stuff done. And our state, it is actually now illegal for families to do this to girls. And I think the FGM will also, I mean, the sex education curriculum, if the girls are getting exposed to this stuff again, it will give them the knowledge to express to their teachers or whoever that my, you know, can we see the B word on this? Yeah, I just wanted to make sure, like, you know, like, my vagina doesn't look like this. You know, it doesn't look like what you're showing us. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, I think the girls should be able to. We need to give them the terminology to express themselves and to say, no, like, this is normal. Your body shouldn't. Nothing should happen to your body. Do you know what I mean? And, like, have the conversation between the mom and her daughter too, get started. You know, like, if mom has had it, like, is this something she wants to have her daughter? Like, you can't. In the state of Washington. And if you go and you come back and you know, that is found out that there might be some legal ramifications on the parents. So. So, yeah, but that's a good, good one that you bring up to fgmc. It really is something that ties into this topic as well. [00:27:26] Speaker B: It's like, the only people who benefit from this lack of education is the ones who want to inflict harm. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Crazy. [00:27:35] Speaker B: That's crazy to me. [00:27:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it is really crazy to me. But also the weird thing is, like, with fgmc, it's often the grandparents, the grandmoms, the moms who want their daughter to get it done because they've had it. And you think it would be like the opposite. Again, it's just a cultural notion of, like, this is something we've done for so long, we need to continue doing, you know, but you don't need to continue doing it. Yeah, because like every, like that's it's traumatic. It's a traumatic event that little girls are being afflicted on. You know, almost all the time girls are up and, like, watching this being done. You know, in some areas there is no even, you know, like, local anesthesia, you know, being done. It's horrific. Like, when you hear some of the stories that some women had experienced when they were getting it done, you know, like the whole village comes out to see your legs spread out. You know what I mean? Like, it's like in some cultures, and it's sad and it's sickening. Young girls, privacy should be protected, you know, So a girl that this has happened to, if somebody makes advance, she thinks this is normal because, you know, mom was there when this doctor was having, you know what I mean, Was doing this weird thing to her. [00:28:49] Speaker B: She was the first one who broke her boundaries. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You know, so you don't want to do that. You don't want to take the trust away. You know, we are the protectors of our children. You know, Allah made us their protector. And so you want to protect them from any harm. And then you are literally hand delivering them to this doctor who would, you know what I mean? Who would do these procedures to them. It's. It's. Yeah, it's. It's not cool. And even if they, you know, of course, they're kids, you're the only one that they have, so whatever you do to them, they'll run back to you, you know, but it's in their psyche, you know, it's buried somewhere in there that there was a time that my mom allowed this to happen to me, you know? Yeah. [00:29:26] Speaker B: And it's like sometimes if, you know, like your own parent wouldn't advocate for you, then once, once something else does happen, you're not even going to go to them to help you. [00:29:36] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:29:36] Speaker B: You know? Exactly. [00:29:37] Speaker A: There was a. There was a story I was listening to, actually. One of. She's a Muslim sister, and she said that her cousin made advance, you know, had. Had done sexual assault on her, basically. And at the time she was like five or something. And then when she went to school and of course the family didn't believe her. And even if she did tell them, they wouldn't believe because the men are put on a pedestal, you know. [00:30:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:04] Speaker A: In their culture, too. And then. But she went to school and in sex education is when she realized what had happened to her was rape. Her cousin actually raped her. Do you know what I mean? Because, like, she didn't know, like your kid you know, five, seven year old, whatever. And so, so yeah, it's like if you allow them to have this, you know, crazy procedure like you said, if something else happens to them, they're just gonna think, you know, my mom maybe might not do anything about this because she allowed this other guy did this. You know what I mean? To me. So it's huge. [00:30:39] Speaker B: How do we equip parents to have these important conversations without fear or shame? [00:30:43] Speaker A: Think that's a good question. Sophie always has good questions. Yeah, I think us talking about it, you know, as parents and just being frank with one another, also our own wishes, love what we knew, like, right. Like before we got married, before we had kids, like, you know, sexually, like all those things, like I wish somebody had just admitting that there were things you didn't know. Right. And then not wanting for your daughters to repeat that same thing. Right. Is important. Yeah, I think, I mean, as a woman, I love empowering women. And one of the ways I do that is not, you know, like early Muslims were feminists, you know what I mean? Like, like this is like feminism has nothing on us, you know, because we had rights for women to self educate, you know, we have rights for women to sexually be satisfied. You know what I mean? Like our dean taught us that. Right. And you know, again, child spacing, you know, during their socialism time, people used to practice the pull out method. Right? Now we have so many, you know, of things including, you know, medications, hormone, whatever and things like that. But child spacing is child spacing, whatever, you know, you choose. But I love incorporating like the partners in, in this too. And because we don't want to, you know, we don't want to push away our brothers, right? Like, because they are just as important. Like the dads need to know about fgmc. So that way they can also advocate for their daughters too. You know, the dads need to know about, you know, like during pregnancy I talk to people about different positions, you know, because your belly gets bigger, you know what I mean? You're uncomfortable. But you can still have sex during pregnancy. Do you know what I mean? I do talk to these things about families, you know, like if we have someone who's post dating, you know, who's pregnant past 40 weeks, one of the things we talk to them about is have intercourse with orgasm. You know, like the stuff that's in the man's semen is basically it helps soften your cervix, which will help it dilate, you know, things like that. Like making sure that the conversation is within the women, they're having the conversation themselves. Also bringing in the men too. And not, you know, it's not, it's not them versus us. Right. Especially these younger people who were open minded. Right. We need to collectively come together and you know, talk about this. Because of course dads would prefer mom to talk to their daughters, you know what I mean, about these things. And of course, you know, dads would do their sons. Even though my sons, I do, I do most of the educating. My sons, I do, I do most of the educating. Sometimes my husband says that might be a little too much, but no, if a kid comes asks question, I will tell it like it is, you know, and things like that. So yeah, I think we just need to have a really frank, you know, conversation among women too. You know, not sugarcoat things. [00:33:37] Speaker B: Can the average person like get this information or is it just for pregnant. [00:33:41] Speaker A: People, like the stuff I'm speaking. That's why I'm saying like I am totally open to like young people about to get married having that conversation with me. Right. I always tell my, my niece and nephews, you know, right before you get married, make sure you come to auntie, you know, I will answer all your questions and then some, you know. So I actually am interested in getting like that flash curriculum training too so that I can provide the training outside of school if people are interested. And of course this is for, like you said, it's not just for like the stuff I do. It's more geared towards pregnancy. But I'm more than willing to share it with other non pregnant people too. [00:34:20] Speaker B: I would love to learn. [00:34:22] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, I think everybody should. You know what I mean? I think everybody should. I remember this long time ago, years, years ago. We did. It was myself and this other nurse, we did this session with young Muslim girls and we basically had, you know, we basically had. We were talking about sex education and we had pictures of like the differences of. Do you know what I mean? The anatomy, how different it looks and the little girl's faces were like, oh my God, like this. You know what I mean? Like just. It's because you want to normalize things, right? Even on, you know, vaginas that are not. Have not been undergone fgmc, they look different too. You know, just normalizing that, it's different for you, you know what I mean? But it's important for people, I encourage people to be able to take a look at down there and see what, you know what I mean? Because there's some people, they don't even want to do that, like, this is part of you, you know what I mean? You should be able to just verbalize what's, you know what I mean? So that, you know, if there's something off and you know, things like that. So don't shy away. This, this is like part of your health, you know, and things like that. And you know, people who are in healthier, you know, sexual relationship tend to have healthy marriages too, you know, it's. That's just a fact, you know, and again, it's not just a one way thing. It's for, for both people to be satisfied in the relationship too. Yeah. [00:35:48] Speaker B: A couple of years ago, I heard people, they, they just realized what a urethra was. [00:35:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:53] Speaker B: And they thought their pee and their period blood was coming from the same place. [00:35:59] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:36:00] Speaker B: You know, it's coming from different parts of their body. [00:36:02] Speaker A: I love it. So that, that was basically, that was the reason behind those pictures that we showed. The different anatomy was also to show people like, and where baby comes out. Because people are like, where does my. Does my baby come out of my butt? You know, like where. Because it's a good question. Where does the, you know, baby come out? You know, and. Yeah, and there are basically. Yeah, there's a vaginal opening where the period comes out, where the baby is born, where the intercourse happens, you know, and of course there is the urethra that. Where the pee comes out, you know. Yeah. And then basically right, like urethra is like above it is where like the clitoris is. Right. And things like that. And when FGMC happens, sometimes they do like, like the, like what do you call the Sunni. They call it Sunni type, which is like the very invasive type. They're basically cutting. You know, where the two labia minoras meet. Small lips maybe. Yeah, they're just like cutting some of that. The hood of that is where they're cutting and the clutch is still under there. Right. And things like that. So. But people need to know like these things, you know what I mean, what's happening to their, you know, to like. [00:37:09] Speaker B: The function of them and then like the negative effects if you remove certain parts. [00:37:14] Speaker A: Yeah. What happens? Yeah, exactly. Honestly, you know, when the birth is happening, women need that extra space to allow their, their, the birth canal, the vagina, to stretch. The babies had to stretch, you know, but when, when you remove most of that stuff, there's not, not enough skin to give. Right. So those women are more likely to tear or have the episiotomy to give room to the baby to Be born, you know, so Allah fashioned our body so beautifully and every. Everything has a purpose, you know, so when you mess with it, that's when you know it's a big problem, Especially a growing body. You know, somebody whose body is just now sprouting. You go in and do this, you know, it's. Yeah. [00:37:58] Speaker B: This is kind of off topic, but I remember when I was in fifth grade and like we were learning flash and stuff, I would go to the library and I check out like books about puberty and like period stuff like that. And I would hide it all the way at the bottom of my back just, just so no one sees it. But like, now that I think about it, I'm like, I'm so sad. [00:38:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:17] Speaker B: That I'm hiding something that's so normal. [00:38:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:20] Speaker B: That we, every human being experiences, you know? [00:38:23] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. [00:38:24] Speaker B: But now that I'm older, like I. I've taken. I've taken so much courses. [00:38:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:29] Speaker B: Like Village Auntie and Dr. Shakira, she teaches about like how to talk to kids about their bodies and stuff like that and provide age appropriate information. [00:38:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:41] Speaker B: So it's been nice being. To relearn as an adult. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Yeah. It's. It's really. Yeah. Like, you just bring. Bring back memory for me too because I never had. Conversation was never had with me about when you get your period, you do xyz. I just kind of heard people like what they do and things like that. And when I saw the blood was when I was told, oh yeah, you put this on and then every. Whatever. Xy, whatever hours you change it, whatever, you know what I mean? And things like that. So I remember feeling so ashamed of like other people finding out I had my period, you know, other women finding out and there was this crazy stupid woman, she would slap people in the butt. That was a thing she did. And I remember she slapped me in the butt this one time. And then of course I had freaking wedge like, you know, the pad or whatever in there. And then she was like, oh my God, did you get your. And I just felt so ashamed, like, do you know what I mean? Like. Yeah, it's not a shameful thing. It is like, it's a sign of very, you know, healthy, fertile, you know what I mean? Body. And it's like we as women, I mean, if it wasn't for women, the population wouldn't be this much. You know what I mean? Like, you know, like it's. Again, it's. Our bodies are designed so beautifully that we, you know, we can act. It can actually House a human being to be developed within it. Do you know what I mean? And then push. Push that human being out. And then after that, also just nurse the baby. Right. Like from, like on the outside. It's just amazing what women's bodies can do. And it's. It's shameful that some people choose it to make it look like it's something bad is happening when our bodies do something. You know what I mean? Natural. [00:40:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:26] Speaker A: So, yeah. [00:40:27] Speaker B: Do you know child too? [00:40:28] Speaker A: I do. [00:40:30] Speaker B: Earlier this year, we're at a retreat together and I remember her saying, depending on the way people responded to you when you got your period. [00:40:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:38] Speaker B: That's gonna, like, like, for example, your mom. That's gonna impact the dynamic between, like the mother daughter relationship, you know, and when a girl gets her period, it should be treated like a rite of passage. But if you beat it, if you, like, make her feel ashamed. [00:40:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:54] Speaker B: That's how she's always going to experience it. [00:40:56] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's. Yeah, I could so see that, like, it should be something celebrated. It should be like, oh, my God, you are a young woman now, you know, and. And things like that. But unfortunately, it doesn't happen like that. I remember it like, for my sisters, we just taught each other what to do, you know. So I think, I like to think that my younger sisters had a bit more information before it than we did because we had experienced it and we share that with them. Right. Like cramping, like the mood changes that young women go through. So, yeah, I think it. Hopefully the younger parents are doing something like that. I don't have a daughter, but if I did, I would definitely, you know, I would definitely celebrate. But I do teach my boys, like, you know, when. When women have their monthly, you know, cycle, they're cramping, you know, like, help them, you know what I mean? Get warm, whatever, Right. Tea or things like that. Just be kind to them, you know, buy your women's pads if you, you know, there's no shame in it. My husband buys my pets, you know what I mean? From Costco. Like, we did book buying too. So like, like these small things, right? So moms, with boys, there is also education that you can still do. Just because you don't have girls, it doesn't mean you don't, you know, educate your boys too. Like, I'm cramping. I'm not, you know, they put down my cj. Oh, Mom. I'm like, no, I'm not praying this, you know. Okay. You know, like, because they know what's going on, you know, and things like that. So very important for moms also that have boys to also share with them too, that you don't have to be explicit, you know, but you do tell them that this is. Because I'll be cramping and I verbalize it to my voice. Yeah. I think moms who have young women should definitely consider celebrating when their daughters to get their menses. Yeah. Like, we have weddings anyways. Crazy weddings. Why not start? We have a party for everything. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I want to be invited to one of these parties. Yeah. [00:42:58] Speaker B: I have a, like, my own personal question. [00:43:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:02] Speaker B: Is it true that the health of like the woman's womb, it can connect intergenerationally, like through grandma, mom and daughter? [00:43:11] Speaker A: There is a science behind that. Yeah, there's totally a science behind that that basically, like the DNA of your. You know what I mean? Great, like, great grandmother is like. You know what I mean? Through you. There is a science behind that. And I do believe that too. Yeah. Especially when it comes to just the struggle and stress and all that stuff. I do believe that there is inner connection, like generational interconnection via, like our DNAs that gets passed down. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Again, women's bodies are. [00:43:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:42] Speaker A: Because can you imagine, like, women are born with all, all of the ovaries, like, like all of the eggs that they have for their lifetime. Girls have that because, you know, sperm gets made, like, all the time. But for us, we have set of eggs, you know, that we are born with. That's it. You know what I mean? Unless you're like a surrogate or somebody, you know, you don't. You don't get to be whatever, making extra eggs, like, after you're a certain age and things like that, which I think is really powerful too. Yeah. [00:44:13] Speaker B: I feel like there's still not enough even research done about the woman's body. [00:44:18] Speaker A: I don't think so either. I feel like we need. We need. Because all this science, you know, that has happened. Majority of the people that discovered or did it are men. I feel like we need women pioneer scientists who just specialize in women. It's different when the science or the research is coming from, you know, somebody who actually feels it and not just studied, you know. Yeah. [00:44:42] Speaker B: How are Muslim girls and boys taught differently about their bodies and sexuality? [00:44:47] Speaker A: I think Muslim girls, Muslim boys are taught about their sexuality by their dad too, which is like, this is why it's also important for the, for the dads to have a Conversation and the moms to have a conversation with their daughters. And I could also see why it's important. You know, the group suggested, the Muslim folks group, parents suggested that they wanted to be taught gender based, you know, so that people can feel comfortable too and things like that. So. Yeah, I don't even think. Yeah, honestly, that most Muslim young men have had that conversation. Conversation with their own dads too, and. Which is something that needs to happen. Yeah, it's something that needs to happen. At least. I, I think it's, it's better now than it was before, but I don't think it's still to that level where, you know, like consent. Consent giving. Right. Like sexual assault. Like all of these things. I don't, you know, like. And STIs again. Or, you know, pregnancies. Because pregnancy prevention is not just for the girl only. Boys have a big stake in it too. Yeah. Like the use of condom, you know, and things like that. So I just think there needs to be more work from both genders to teaching our children, to sort of educating our kids. So I don't think. Yeah, I don't think it's happening differently. I think it needs to happen, honestly. The other thing that the curriculum teaches is also like a relationship. What do you call relationship safety? Right. What that looks like and like healthy relationship. What that looks like and things like that. So. Which I think both boys and girls need to be able to be taught about too. [00:46:31] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. I feel like with this question, how are Muslims take like Muslim out of it. But like, girls and boys talk differently about their bodies and sexuality. [00:46:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:43] Speaker B: I feel like girls have more rules growing up. For example, they're not allowed to leave the house compared to boys. They're always. They can do whatever they want, you know, and then when it comes to like the. With your body, you're taught to cover your oda. Boys are not even talked to about that. You know, they have rules too. They do for their bodies. And then when you get married. Yeah. You're taught. I saw a video on TikTok where the lady was saying her mom said to her, the more, the more kids you have for a man, the more you can keep him. But men are not talked about that, about keeping a woman. [00:47:24] Speaker A: I don't think that's true. The more kids you have, the more they run away. But yeah, again, I think it's always like the women that's being held back, the women that has to do this, you know what I mean? And. And the man basically have a free card you know, like you said, there is, you know, there's hijab for the man, for the women too, you know, and things like that, lowering your gaze and, you know, all of these things. And then also in some cultures within, within Islam, it's okay to have sex outside of, you know, marriage so long as you marry your cousin at the end. Do you know what I mean? You know what I mean? Or like so long as you marry somebody your mom hand picked or whatever. Right. But that's not fair. [00:48:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:10] Speaker A: You know, like you giving this, this guy to just go and do whatever he wants and then at the end he marries this nice, sweet girl, you know, who doesn't know much about and you know, sometimes might be putting her at risk, you know, by bringing some crazy stuff to her sexually. So I. Yeah, it's always not. It doesn't seem fair all the time. And the other thing about having kids too, you know, like, I know of some sisters who want to use child spacing, you know, form of it, but the husband's against it, you know. But then again, why are you against it? Like, you know, sometimes people think it's like a healthy sign of sexual life is how many kids you have. That's not. Do you know what I mean? It's not at all. [00:48:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:57] Speaker A: And so it's. I don't know. Yeah. And it's funny that mom is actually, you know, encouraging her daughter to do that because it's just gonna strain the relationship sometimes if you're not having time for one another, you know, because you constantly are either pregnant, vomiting or whatever or like, you know what I mean, you're busy recovering from birth and raising children. And oftentimes if you have more kids, who's taking care of those more kids? It's not like everybody has a nanny, you know, it's often the women, you know, so it just. Yeah, it puts a strain in the relationship, I feel like. Which is why I think, you know, within, you know, the premises of Islam, it's fine for the couple if, so long as they are on the same page, to choose any form of child spacing that they wish. Because again, Islam puts emphasis on quality, not just the quantity too, you know, cultivating your relationship, getting closer, you know, being both parties, being happy. It's just as important as the number of babies that you, that you have. You want to bring kids into a loving environment, you know, not because you get pregnant just to keep him one more year around. Yeah. If a person wants, like that, that kind of person, you're just Wasting your time. And, you know, and oftentimes it's the kids who suffer in a situation like this too. And so, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend that if a person does not see you as you are with one or two kids, they're not going to change their mind when you have seven kids. You know what I mean? [00:50:27] Speaker B: So, yeah, people often use that line about the angels being mad at a woman if she turns down, like, sex with her husband. But I feel like they misinterpret it. [00:50:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I know, right? The whole night. You're gonna be cursed by him. Yeah, but it's not like some like, okay, he has needs. She has needs too. I don't like when women deprive their husbands of, you know, like having sex either, you know, because you're not his sister and he's not your brother. You know what I mean? And so, but if you're not feeling up to it one night, Alice Ramta knows you're, you know what I mean? You're not, you're not trying to punish him or get. You know what I mean? You don't do that. Yeah. So. But also, that's the thing. Like, you can't expect women to have like five, six kids and she's running the house. You're not helping her. And then you come at night and you want her to be a woman to you. Do you know what I mean? She's exhausted already. So, like being around with the women, right? Helping her out. You know how there are different forms of like, love, right? Like some people, it's like the act of doing. Some people, it's act of verbally expressing, you know? Yeah. Love languages. So it's like, it's nice when your husband is around the house helping you do things too, right. He's like taking out the garbage, right. Vacuuming. He's helping, like you're cooking, he's helping you wash the dishes. Like all of these things, it's like, especially for women, we have to be worked up to it. You know what I mean? You can't just be like absent all day. She's been with the kids and then you come home at 11 and you want her to be ready for you. Do you know what I mean? And this happened repeatedly too, you know, so it's a give and take thing and fresh out, you weren't like tired, you know, but if both of you guys were at home, you know, at home and you know, touches also, like, you know, they lead to that. You don't just start like sexual act in bed right then and there, you know, especially for women. Like we want to be touched so many numbers of times in a day. You didn't touch that. I mean like just, you know, kiss on the cheek, you know, touch your hand, hold your hand, massage your feet while watching tv. You know, things like this, all of these things add up to the whole, like you desire this person, you know, like you're not gonna say no. You know what I mean? You've already been built up, you know. [00:52:44] Speaker B: The forecast throughout the day, throughout the day. [00:52:48] Speaker A: It's not just three seconds before, you know, before that, that that happens. So I think that's the other thing like people need to realize is like stay like a stay home mom is like such a hard job to do. It is so hard. You know, you would rather do eight hour, you know, 12 hours and then come home, be done with than 24 hours you are attending to those kids. You know what I mean? So our brothers do need to cut some slack for our sisters and then like again help out around the house as much as you can, you know, of course, if you know, the woman knows that you are the bread earner, you're out working, you come home like oftentimes when you are a nice, you know, to your wives, like she's waiting for a plate of food with you, she wants to sit, she wants to hear about your day. Ask her about her day too, you know what I mean? Like, and so like just it's the little things that matter and then the other things when you come home, come with an open face, come with like excitement that you want to actually be and be with your kids and wife, you know. [00:53:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:49] Speaker A: And not be like you're, you've been at home all day chit chatting with Jennifer and John, whatever. You're laughing, you know, you are one person at the office and then you come home and you're like, yes, you're tired. But the people who've been at home, they've been waiting, longing for you all day too. So they want your company just as you know, just the same. So I think it's just, yeah, people really need to, you have to put in the work and like relationships. It's not just when you're courting this person. Marriage takes work. You need to be able to put into that, you know, that time. And yeah, and women who like knows her husband is like, you know, coming home, looking forward to see her just like, just as she's looking forward to see him even if she's been home all day, you know, running after however many number of kids at night, you know, she desires him too, you know, so I don't know, I feel like we went off tangent with that. But that's my. But that's my two cents of, you know, advice for young, you know, married people. And you don't have to be like newlywed. You could be in your fifth, the 10th or 15th or 20, you know, like, you have to put the work in. Don't, don't expect this person just to be like, oh, we've been married for 20 years. No, no, no, you still need to be, show up, you know, like, present yourself to your wife, present yourself to your husband, you know, go out to those dinner dates. Dinner dates are so important when you, especially when you've been married for quite some time. You need to rekindle that, you know, and when you go, don't talk about kids, talk about yourselves, you know, just giggle. Like young. You know what I mean? Like. Yeah, and it's. And again, it doesn't have to be somewhere formal, you know, it could really be anywhere. Just make it like that. It's just about the two of you when you're there. Right. Anyways, those I can go on. [00:55:35] Speaker B: This question is not on here. It's just my one person. [00:55:39] Speaker A: Okay. [00:55:40] Speaker B: What are your views of consent in marriage? [00:55:44] Speaker A: Yeah, my views, consent in marriage. [00:55:46] Speaker B: Like, what do you mean when it comes to like having sex, what is like, some people think because someone is your partner, that means they should always have like a right to you and they can't say no. But for some people, that triggers them, like, especially if they were sexually violated, they get re triggered again in marriage as like a midwife and seeing different women and different experiences. [00:56:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Some people think just because this person is your partner, you should be able to have sex whenever you want with them. There's such thing as rape while people are married too. Do you know what I mean? If you're doing things to your partner, oftentimes it's a woman that she's not wanting that that is a rape. You know what I mean? So I think like you said sexual violence history, like being triggered is that that stuff is real. Right. So that could happen with your own partner. We are, I am aware of that. When people like, that's why when we take, when I take somebody's health history, that's one of the things we talk about. And then because it shows up sometimes in labor too, it shows up when we are doing vaginal exam to the person or like we are collecting pap smear, like it shows up. Right. Some people really check out like they don't want to be present and things like that. That. [00:56:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:00] Speaker A: So you don't want to re trigger that. That's a, you know, it's not something you want to re trigger. Especially in a. Someone that someone that you love, you know. So I think if again like saying no, like our sisters should not say no just because it's no, you know, like they're just trying to get back or, or like hold something back from the brother, you know what I mean? Because this is something Allah made okay for you know, to happen between the two of them. But at the same time our brothers should also be forcing themselves to the women too. And the same thing too. Sometimes it's the opposite because it's the man who's withholding sex from the women, you know, and this is not right either. Right. So like they, it's not just putting food on the table roof over their head. You do have responsibility to fulfill this person's sexual desires too. So I think consent is important in that sense. And again that is, you know, something that the curriculum teaches is giving consent and receiving consent, you know, so. And even when you kiss somebody, like you can't just go in and you know what I mean? Like you have to have a consent, you know, for that person to whatever. And there's body languages and things like that. You know, obviously when you're married and you guys know each other, it's like it becomes a natural, you know, like you're leaving out the house because you're. Or you come home, you, you know, things like that. But sexually, like I think you have to make sure the person is okay and is in a better. Is in a good place. It's also not fun too. It's like a one way sex, you know, when it's just you who's like doing the work and the other person is just sort of, you know, on that receiving end. So. So yeah, it's important to, to make sure that your partner is consenting to it. Yeah. Even after you're married. Yeah, especially after you're married. Because as Muslims we should not be having sex out of wedlock anyways. Do you know what I mean? So yeah. [00:58:54] Speaker B: What would a culturally and religiously informed sex education curriculum look like in a Muslim school or home? [00:59:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I think this question goes back to like when you read off some of my findings from the folks groups. I think they give very concise, clear instructions of What Muslim parents want, right? Again, the, the two biggest one being it needs to be taught by, if it's going to be at the school setting, it needs to be taught by somebody with Islamic background, somebody who's Muslim obviously who understands the modesty that comes with this and in delivering this, right. And then also it needs to be taught by like a gender based, right? The two groups separated like that. And if you're going to do it at home, I think it's essential that you send the tools home first before the education piece starts at school. So that way even parents who didn't necessarily talk about this topic prior to it are now sort of forced to have the conversation because again, if like give the parents sometime be like, you know, I don't know, December this year we are going to be learning about this and then send it home at least, you know, a month or two before with a clear instructions of like how to have this, this talk, right. Give parents, you know, orientation of how to begin the talk with their whatever. But I think it will be nicer if the schools are willing to do a bit more than just like we're providing the classes. Everybody. We don't understand why nobody wants to come Again, it's that Eurocentric mind frame that, you know, one size fits all kind of thing. Do you know what I mean? Some communities just need a bit more time, you know, to chew up on the information. And I think that that is true for our Muslim community as well. So. Yeah. [01:00:37] Speaker B: Can I ask you what got you into your degree? [01:00:41] Speaker A: What got me into my degree? Like the maternal child health systems? Yeah, I wanted to do, I wanted to do teaching and I needed to have master's degree in order to do that. So that's why I went in to this. And then of course by that time I was already a midwife for several years when I did and I won it because within the teaching sector you don't see a lot of people that look like us. And it's so important not only like I have students right now at my birth center that I precept, you know, I precepted several students throughout the years as well. But it's so different when students are, can see themselves in their preceptors. And I wanted to extend the same to basically be able to teach a course or two at schools and things like that. So that's what, what got me started. And I had, I had several topics actually that I wanted to. And this wasn't even like in my forefront. I had several topics when I went in. But then again, we start. I had heard the schools wanting to do this, you know, and this would be great for me to get the conversation going, get the community, you know, ready and prepared. Because whatever I do, I like to do something that helps benefit our community communities too. Right. Like my periphery degree. I really wanted to provide alternative to Muslim women in state of Washington. Right. But then later on learned that it wasn't just the Muslim women. It was basically black and brown women that needed, you know what I mean, to birthing. But. But yeah, that was what got me into this. And then the more I looked into it, I read and, you know, I did a lot of literature reviews, the more I was like, this is something I really want to do, so it might be really beneficial for our people here in Washington and abroad, too. [01:02:35] Speaker B: So, yeah, yeah, this question just came to me, but it was from a conversation we had previously. So, like, you know, both of us being Somali a while back, I was at your birth center, and then you told me how when you opened it, your focus was to help Somali women. But once you opened it, you realized they had a lot of fears, like coming to the birth centers, and they were more. They wanted to keep going to the hospitals. You wanted to teach them about, like, the dangers of hospitals and how it's not safe for us as black women. And now you mostly have other black women, but not your own people from your own ethnicity, you know, so if you have. If there's any Somalis, people who are listening to this, what would you say to them about the importance of birth centers? [01:03:22] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. A sister of mine who's actually a professor of political science, was sharing with me. I was having a conversation with her a few days ago, and she was sharing with me a study that she read where basically the communities, they kind of looked at like the Asian community, the white community, the black community, communities that give back to their community. Right. So meaning they shop, let's say, the Asian community, they would get services from other Asians. What does that mean? That means economically, they are stimulating back into their community consistently. The same thing with whites, but it's not true for blacks. Right. So. And I often think about that about the Somali community, you know, and it's often. It's like, we are not there yet. Hopefully the younger generation will be where we are. Like, who amongst us is doing X, Y and Z and who can I get the services from? Right. For me, it's not just the Somalis that I do that to. It's like the Black community, too. Right. For instance, you know, my accountant is African American women. My cpa, you know, who does my taxes is a Somali brother who's been doing it forever. For me, you know, the. When I was building the birth center, intentionally contracted with a construction worker company who. That was owned by an African American person. Right. Because I see the importance of stimulating, like, giving it back to our communities. And I wish a lot of us do that. I think it's oftentimes when somebody from our community is doing something, we tend to not trust it. We tend to think it's not of good quality. Right. So. Which is really sad. Right. And some people don't even give a chance to me, to. You know what I mean, to see what I'm about. Yeah. And if they do, oftentimes I've had, you know, Somalian people come to me, but it's like their parents that are like, oh, my goodness, this person doesn't know what she's doing. She's not in the hospital. Like, you know, like just crazy stuff like that, right? And then they end up going. Going to the hospital and have all of this crazy stuff happen to them there. You know, so totally up to them. But that piece, we're still, like, catching up to. To trust in one another, right? To be like, this person is like, because I have license, the state of Washington, you know, I have malpractice insurance. We are. It's not just, I didn't pull this certificate out of my butt, you know? You know what I mean? Like. Like there is actually, like. And trust me, to be a black person, to be in this line of work, you get scrutinized more than other people. Like, no excuses are accepted from us. Right? And so it's sad when folks from your own community are not utilizing your services as much as you hoped. I remember when I was going through midwifery school years ago, people were like, oh, my goodness, you're going to be so busy because, you know, you were from the Somali community. Because I know of midwives who belong, for instance, to the Catholic community. They don't even do outreach or nothing like that. The church connects them to the services. They have women from their church coming to them. Like, do you know what I mean? Paying private. And so for us, it's not like that. That support is not there. So. Which is really, like, sad, but because for me, when I. That's why I pivoted my. I had various different topics when I was doing my capstone, but I wanted to focus on this one because I knew years along the line, Washington was planning to implement this program. And I wanted the community to have some tools to be able to receive this, because I know the importance of sex education. And so that's why I did my capstone on this project. And then midwifery, I went to, you know, direct into midwifery because I wanted to give, especially the Somali women in my community, alternative option to birth. Because I was seeing just the atrocities that they were having to experience at a time when it's supposed to be, you know, a blissful time. Like you're. You know what I mean? Like, you're so. But when I. When I did that, it was really hard to like. And I used to, you know, recruit. I used to outreach within my community, but it became apparent it was not. That was not what I needed to do. And then. But Allah opened the door for me by, like, having people traveling to see me as far as, like an hour, two hours, three hours, I'm telling you. I had a couple last year who delivered. They came from Sidrawuli. I didn't even know where that was. Seriously, you know, it's like, to the east or west of Vancouver, Washington, Vancouver, B.C. or something like that. And they drove like two, two plus hours to see me. Monthly would come. Every two weeks would come, you know, and so it was crazy. Why? Because this woman was a black woman. She wanted her baby to be delivered by a black woman. Do you know what I mean? So what happened was, for me, now my clientele, like 90% of my clientele are black, African American women, you know, and then I serve the Afghan community to a good chunk of that. So it's. If people come, I will serve. But I feel like our community, it's really. We still have a long way to go to trust one another, to trust that the systems that we're in have vetted us enough, do vet us, like, even extra because of the way we look. And I feel like it's their loss, you know, But I don't advertise myself in the Somali community anymore because of. And I think also there's also that tribal that, you know, like, yeah, I don't have people from. You know what I mean, Lots of people from my tribe here that, you know, and I thought we were also beyond that, you know what I mean? And it's not just a Somali, it's a Muslim in general too often, you know, there's this whole thing about classism, colorism, and all that stuff within the Muslim community as well. So I serve Whoever comes through right for me. And again, 90% of my clients are African Americans and they are non Muslims. They are from the Israelite community. They are from the Christian community. But I serve anybody who comes to me because that's what I am. I am a professional person. My skills, Alhamdulillah, Allah has instilled me with the knowledge and the know how. And I'm not just serving pregnant women and their families. I'm also helping cultivate future midwives, too, by giving them that platform to, to come through and hopefully they'll be able to provide. We will have more midwives that way as well. Yeah. Yes. [01:10:03] Speaker B: I love that. Inshallah, when I have a baby, I'll come to you. [01:10:08] Speaker A: Yes, I'm waiting for you. If you don't, I, I, I'll just sign myself up for you. [01:10:12] Speaker B: I won't be going to the hospital. [01:10:14] Speaker A: Inshallah. Soon. Inshallah, soon. Yeah. [01:10:17] Speaker B: I don't think people even realize the dangers of what can happen when they give birth to the hospital. And I think we also have like that colonized mindset where we think white is always right. [01:10:28] Speaker A: Yeah, white's seriously, that, that is sad thing. And then the other thing, I think at the beginning, we were not, we were not taping this I was talking to you about is something else I've just been noticing a lot is what is it? Professional segregation. I think I said that to you where it's like, you know, the letters after my name, I earned them, you know, I earned them hard. And it's not only for people. People think I should only be serving people in my community too. And people in my community don't want to come get service. Right. Do you know what I mean? But then again, you have people, you have other people, Caucasian people who have the same letters after their name that are being contracted as consultants or whatever to like, serve people that from my community. Do you know what I mean? [01:11:15] Speaker B: So, so backwards. [01:11:16] Speaker A: So it is so backwards. Yeah. So to the sector too, you know, that just to the workforce, it's like we as black women, Black Muslim women, you know, we are able to serve anybody again. We have, even through schooling, we have to know how. Why are we being segregated? To just serve people that look like us. And even when we are asked to serve people that look like us, they want us to do it for free. Why should we do that? Do you know what I mean? We should be able to make living sharing our knowledge and our experiences, you know, so that's something else I'm also noticing lately as well, you know, it's like, but we don't have funding. Can you volunteer? So my knowledge is enough for you based on volunteerism, you know what I mean? And oftentimes you hired somebody who is not even from the community and you're using an interpreter, you know what I mean? But yet I have what it takes. And you don't want to. So it is really in a, like, it's, it's being in a really weird place. But you have to keep your, your, your price, you know, you have to keep your eyes forward. And that's why, you know, alhamdulillah. What I've been able to accomplish, you know, I have people who are staffed, you know, under me that work with me. I have like the nonprofit, for instance, you know, global perinatal services. I like to think that I single handedly changed the outlook of doula services in the state of Washington because the doulas in the past when I trained as a doula predominantly was white. You know, you would rarely see did you know what I was like the second trained Somalia doula. And there was like one African American doula I knew at the time, you know, when we would go to conferences, it would just be me and her, you know. But because of the nonprofit, because of what I've been able to do, like training people, connecting people to resources, we have so many doulas now from the immigrant refugee community and the black community too, you know, and we hire substantial amount of those doulas as well to help serve their own community. Because for me, I believe big in like having people get services from people that look like them. And research shows too, the information is retained better, the person's able to fulfill whatever regimen is put forth for them. It's just good all around. So it's important for folks to give communities the resource they need to, you know, to sustain themselves. [01:13:44] Speaker B: Yes. [01:13:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Anyways, that's another topic, I guess. [01:13:48] Speaker B: I know a lot of doulas who work like, who got their certificates by working through you. [01:13:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:54] Speaker B: And I heard a lot of positive feedback. [01:13:56] Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah. And that's the other thing, like, because I know people think when services are being provided by somebody that look like them, it's mediocre services. That's something I do not stand for. I want things to be top notch for everybody, you know, And I don't like if doula is not fulfilling that. That doula is not a GPS material like that. I don't want people to think, oh, because this person is from my Community, therefore, the service is not going to be as great, you know. No, it's not like that. Just because this person. Because, like you were saying, black women are just. There's so much disparity when it comes to, like, being pregnant, giving birth. A lot of disparity. And this black woman includes immigrant refugee women, too, who are black. So for me, I want. I don't want to repeat what's happening. I want to do better. Right. I want. Which is why my birth center, I honestly believe, is one of the answers to what's happening, especially as it comes to pregnancy and birthing for black women, because it is so important to be able to see the person as a whole and to welcome them in an environment that's welcoming during their pregnancy and also during the. You know, when it comes to welcome their baby into this world. So, like, we are doing phenomenal things at the birth center, you know, which I think is like any Washingtonian, especially as a black women. Black folks should be really proud of the work that is happening in Washington that I am spearheading. Right? So it's not just the birth center. It's also the nonprofit, too. And I want to make sure that every woman who wants to get a doula service has access to. And every woman who wants to try to have baby outside of hospital also has access to that, too. [01:15:44] Speaker B: So, yeah, what healing is possible when we begin to speak about sex education in our Muslim communities? [01:15:51] Speaker A: I think we need to admit those of us that we didn't know what we didn't know. Right? And to admit that there's more that we need to. We need to learn. Right? And to make sure that our children are able. Are equipped to the things that we didn't know. Right. I think we need to admit that we are not immune to, like, sexual assault, just like other communities are. So. And we need to name these things. We need to, like, even, you know, talking about fgmc, like how you said earlier, you know, like, my own mom, who I trust, allow this to happen to me like that. Trust. You know what I mean? Like, we need to. We need to take accountability, I think, conversation again. We need to. To start having this conversation so that way the healing can start and we can stop. We can put a stop to this. Because it was. I can't remember the number right now. Like I told you, I am in the Washington state committee for the fgmc, and it's still happening, like, in Washington state, in Europe, you know, like, stuff still happening worldwide. So we have to have the conversation so that we can stop such barbaric, you know, practices to rest as well. Then also to tell people that just because you have a child attend a childbirth ed, you're not okaying them to be sexually promiscuous, you know, because that's the whole thing, you know, about. People think we do this. If we let them have this education, they might go do it, you know, again. And nobody is. This is not about pornographic or, you know, encouraging. No, this is about people learning what the anatomy of their bodies look like, how. How that is different and it's normal for it to be different, you know, things like that. So I think just having honest conversation is a great way for us to start healing. [01:17:37] Speaker B: For sure. [01:17:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:39] Speaker B: What do you hope listeners take away from this conversation? [01:17:42] Speaker A: I'm hoping people will just start having discussions. I'm hoping that people will start looking at their. Like, I'm hoping if the school systems are listening, I'm hoping that they will start thinking about different ways to deliver for different communities. Like, it's not like a cookie cutter thing. That one thing fits all, you know, that it needs to be tailored to how it's delivered to every community. And then for the parents, I'm hoping that they'll start having these discussions and even if you don't know where to start, reach out to your school, get the material, you know, like the conversation starters. And then I'm also hoping, like younger moms, like in support groups, they can start having this conversation too. And dads should have conversation with their, with their sons as well. And it's not all moms who should, you know, who should have these conversations with their daughters. Yeah. So I'm hoping, hoping that. Because that's where it starts. If we don't, if we don't talk about things, share information, then we don't know. Right. So, yeah. And then if you, if people have any questions, I'm like I said, I'm more than happy for them to reach out to. I'm a parent myself, you know, and I am a professional in this sector. I do have some knowledge about this stuff as well. So people want to reach out, you know, they're more than welcome to reach out to me as well. My work email should I just give a shout out to where my work email is. Basically my first name, Faisa F A I S A globalperinatal.org and you can find out more information about our nonprofit through globalperinatalservices.org or my birth center at federalwaybirthcenter.org. so yeah. [01:19:22] Speaker B: Are these resources like affordable to the average person or is it for certain group? [01:19:28] Speaker A: Yeah. So for the birth center, for me, for somebody to come get care with me, I am in network with insurances, both private and Medicaid or state insurance. So the insurance covers that. Right. And then if there's a deductible, especially if it's private, my biller will let them know what that looks like. Oftentimes it's way less than the hospital. And then we do the birth center fee, which is the admin fee. The insurances cover that too. So if somebody has insurance, they're totally good to go. And I do provide prenatal care only for people wanting to have hospital birth. So that is an option for people to do. And then of course, if people get prenatal with me, because if you get prenatal, my prenatals are 30 minutes long. So we do get actually a chance for the person to get all their questions answered and for us to allow to give informed decisions and all that stuff. So you're more than welcome for that. And then of course the delivery, I, I'm the one who delivers. I do have assistance at the delivery. And then my postpartum care is significantly different than the hospital hospital. So we do three visits during the postpartum period. One is your, we do home visit and then the other one is a week old office visit and then six week visit. I'm able to provide pap smear, do contraception if people want to do that, or child spacing options. So that is an insurance covers that for people who do qualify for insurance, both like I said, Medicaid and private. And I am in network with basically all of them except tri. That is the military insurance I'm not in network with. I would love to be in network with that because there are a lot of military families that reach out to me that I'm not able to serve. And I'm so close to what is it? Jbls because my, you know, in our offices, in the person is in Fenner way. So that's the midwifery piece, the nonprofit piece. It's basically anybody who qualifies for Medicaid, it's free to them. And people who qualify for Medicaid but identify as black or African Americans, we do have grants for them too. So service is free to them too. So with the nonprofit, basically services are free to immigrant, refugee and black families. So people should utilize that. We provide doula services, lactation support, and then we also provide childbirth education, parent support groups as well. So a lot of services that sort of help the new family, you know, just get the support that they need to starting this parenting journey. [01:21:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like hearing all these things, it makes me feel more excited and comfortable about actually having a baby. [01:22:03] Speaker A: For sure. For sure. Yeah. I've had, like, even for me, I wish all of these services were existed when I had my babies, you know, because there is a lot of services, and especially at gps, we are intentionally about the services that we provide because often, like, they are services that were requested by the families that we serve or the communities that we serve, you know, and they're really intentional, too, like us providing, you know, a prenatal lactation education. It's intentional because we want oftentimes, you know, people would go to the hospital, have their baby, and then are being asked, how do you want to feed your baby? And all of a sudden now you want. People want you to put your baby into your breast, you know, and when people haven't had that conversation before, you know, or like, or like, have had discussions about what to anticipate some of the, you know, issues that might come, it's easier for them to quit when things happen. But with prenatal lactation education, the person is aware of, like, oh, this is what happens. Oh, my milk doesn't come in until day three or four. You know, I don't need to give baby formula because baby's belly is small, you know what I mean? And babies don't need a lot of milk at the beginning, you know, and things like that. What's happening to your body, what's being really made in your breast and how that's related to your bleeding and shrinking of your uterus. Like, all those things, all that education happens with a person prenatally. So that way by the time baby comes, person is equipped with information. And when baby comes, a person has issues. We have lactation consultants that do home visits free of charge to people. Traditionally, these were things that were done, you know, for wealthier people, basically, because it's out of pocket fee. We're talking about like 150, $300 home visit. We're providing that to our families for free because I help raise funds, because you know what I mean? All of these things, these are things that we want to make sure. Like, again, I said what we're doing in Washington is literally, we are trying to make sure that the outcomes for black and brown people are better for all babies. Do you know what I mean? And of course, when things are better for brown and black people, they're better for everybody too. So that's what we're doing. [01:24:16] Speaker B: I feel like when you discuss all these things like lactation and stuff like that, I'm realizing how much I don't even know about my own body. And I thought I knew myself pretty well, but it's like there's so much I don't know. And I feel like when you don't know these things, how can you even advocate for yourself when you're at a hospital, you know, and you're just gonna listen to whatever the doctors or nurses tell you because you don't even know what you don't know. [01:24:41] Speaker A: Exactly. See, yet knowledge is so powerful. This is why we don't just expect people. Well, breastfeeding is better. You should breastfeed your baby, you know, okay, sure, whatever. But when you tell people, you know, babies when they're born, right, Their first few poops are gonna be really, really dark, you know? And why? Why is that? It's because their body is retaining so much red blood cells that need to come out, that needs to be excreted out of their bodies. How does that happen? By frequently feeding them breast milk. Because breast milk is really laxative, especially the first few. Like the first milk, which called colostrum, it's like, it looks almost like oily, right? It's like, people call it liquid gold. It's so good. It really helps to set up the baby's, you know, biome and all that stuff. And so you give that to baby to help pass this dark, tart looking poop so that way baby doesn't turn yellow, right? Because if you don't give, you know, BreastFeed baby every two to three hours after they're born and you're not giving them breast milk, right? Because formula tends to make babies constipated. And babies are not passing this dark tart poop out of their body as fast as we would like, right? But when you give them breast milk, breast milk is laxative that the colostrum helps baby to pass this dark poo so that baby's skin doesn't turn yellow, you know, so when you tell people all of this, like, it makes sense because Allah subhana wa ta' ala sustained this baby inside your uterus and now baby comes out. Most moms are able to breastfeed their babies unless there's, you know, like some sort of a surgery happened or physiologically something is wrong with their breast, you know, they're not able to produce. But most women are able to produce it's just time. You need to give your body time. Right. The moment placenta comes out, your body goes into full mode making milk. Right. The hormone milk making are released. You know, people need to understand all this that's happening and then they'll be like, oh, that makes sense. So the more I feed my baby, it goes from the poop color changes from really dark to green, you know, to light green to like yellow. When mature milk comes in, your baby's poop is yellow. And breastfed babies are never constipated, you know, so when people have this knowledge, they're able to see through it. But when they don't, it's because their mom telling them to do it. Because the mom has done it, they'll just kind of continue doing it, you know. [01:27:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:02] Speaker A: So knowledge is really powerful and that's what we try to do, like for like talking to people ahead of time. Of course there's still people who are like, no, no, no, I'm still going to breastfeed them, that's fine. You know, and because some people, they just don't trust their bodies enough that their body's able to sustain their baby, you know, nutritionally. But yeah, but at least have them to have that knowledge ahead of time so that they can make the informed decision that they want. Yes. [01:27:28] Speaker B: Thanks for joining me today. I feel like this topic was important to me, being first generation, like Somali American and being raised like, you know, by my parents and then also being raised around Gen Z, like teens and stuff. [01:27:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:27:45] Speaker B: Because now I'm the adult. Right. So now it becomes my responsibility to create an environment where the kids after me can talk to me even if I'm not a parent. So, and I speak English, so I can speak to them like in a more comfortable manner with my own life experience and then just like talk to people who have the education. So I'm happy you were able to join me and we finally made it happen. [01:28:12] Speaker A: I know, it's always a pleasure. Yeah. I was so worried because I have somebody who's due like anytime now. I was worried I might cancel this, but I'm glad it worked out well. And even it's downtown Seattle too, but even that made it easy get here and find parking and all that stuff. So I'm glad we're able to have this chat and I hope it's, it's somewhat of a use to people and again, if anybody has any follow up, they can reach out to you or they can reach out to me directly. I'm more than happy to chat with people. Yeah. [01:28:43] Speaker B: And I hope more like nonprofits and even like schools and stuff reach out to you because we really need this information for the younger generation because they're getting a lot of their knowledge from the Internet, you know, and they've been more overexposed than we were, like with these phones and everything. [01:29:02] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. I tell grown women I see, I tell them, like, stop listening to TikTok. Because TikTok people just post, you know, shock and all things. They want a lot of plates, you know, they want this and that. So there's so much d. Like, there's so much demystifying that we have to do during the prenatal, you know, the clinic, when people come to the appointments. I saw this on TikTok. I saw that on TikTok. It's like, okay, great. But this is what science is saying, you know, I always direct people to a place where they can find more informed education, more evidence based education rather than like, what's on TikTok. Because TikTok is not the truth. TikTok. These people just want the clicks, you know, and things like that. So, yeah, very important for people to have resource, you know, like somewhere to go to where they can get sound information. Yeah. And I feel like when kids come to you, you're able to answer their questions. And if not, you have enough resources at your disposal, you can, you know, pinpoint them too. So. Which is great. Yeah. [01:30:00] Speaker B: Well, thanks for joining us on Ellen Amanda. If this episode moved you, please share it with a friend or a parent. If you want to reach out to me and connect on a future episode, you can email [email protected]. and let's talk about more controversial, taboo topics and just create informed so that the community can make informed decisions and just to benefit our communities. Thank you. Holding, holding on to longing. Holding on to nostalgia. Holding on. On to home. Holding on to grief. Holding on to the memories. Holding on. Holding, holding on for your life. Holding on to root. Holding on to culture. Holding your breath. Holding on to faith. Holding on to God. Holding, holding for the future. Holding, holding on to the Ummah one story at a time.